# So I'm looking at the Declaration of Independence **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 21, 2017, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501 "2017-06-21T02:43:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/1 "2017-06-21T02:43:00Z")
…to see if I can find anything that would sound legally binding. First thing I notice is that once you get past the flowery opening…it sounds very much like a dramatic reading of a break-up letter. Really lends itself well to some kind of reading. But the end really perked my ears re: states rights: > [@](#): > > That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor. So it reads like it gives the states all kinds of independent rights, and given the jeopardy the states and the signers put themselves in, it should give the quoted passage even more legal weight. But then you get to the end and (lol) the states throw it away by affirming they are NOT independent states. By mutually pledging a union to each other they become one state So, I have a question. Is there anything else between the DoI and the Constitution that FURTHER forbids states from acting independently? Or even in the Constitution? Sorry, I’m not up on all the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/2 "2017-06-21T03:30:17Z")
There’s nothing legally binding in the Declaration of Independence. Use the search function with the words “articles” and “confederation” to get lots of threads about what happened between the Declaration and the Constitution. None of that is legally binding either. Then get ready for the endless argument about what rights states have. Basically they have the rights that the federal government hasn’t taken itself. Oh! That it was so simple. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/3 "2017-06-21T04:06:41Z")
The only legal point established by the Declaration of Independence was that the American colonies were no longer part of the British Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/4 "2017-06-21T04:33:51Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > …to see if I can find anything that would sound legally binding. > > First thing I notice is that once you get past the flowery opening…it sounds very much like a dramatic reading of a break-up letter. Really lends itself well to some kind of reading. > > But the end really perked my ears re: states rights: > > So it reads like it gives the states all kinds of independent rights, and given the jeopardy the states and the signers put themselves in, it should give the quoted passage even more legal weight. > > But then you get to the end and (lol) the states throw it away by affirming they are NOT independent states. By mutually pledging a union to each other they become one state > So, I have a question. Is there anything else between the DoI and the Constitution that FURTHER forbids states from acting independently? Or even in the Constitution? Sorry, I’m not up on all the Constitution. I take it that you’ve never paid attention to the period between 1776 and 1787. The individual states practically were independent countries during that period. During the war, George Washington and the Congress were reduced, on multiple occasions, to well-nigh begging the states to do extremely important things (like supplying troops to the Continental Army, and supplying funds to fight the war) that the states didn’t always want to do. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/5 "2017-06-21T05:52:21Z")
I don’t think it’s enforceable because we never threw dog poopy on the King’s shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/6 "2017-06-21T05:58:56Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > …First thing I notice is that once you get past the flowery opening…it sounds very much like a dramatic reading of a break-up letter. Really lends itself well to some kind of reading… Little known fact, the DoI is the 9th track on Alanis Morrisette’s album Jagged Little Pill. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/7 "2017-06-21T08:20:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The only legal point established by the Declaration of Independence was that the American colonies were no longer part of the British Empire. That was the most manifestly _illegal_ thing in it. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/8 "2017-06-21T08:36:12Z")
Indeed. And the British courts did not recognize the Declaration. For the purposes of British law, the United States became independent on September 3, 1783, the date the British recognized US independence in the Treaty of Paris. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/9 "2017-06-21T12:05:37Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > …to see if I can find anything that would sound legally binding. > > First thing I notice is that once you get past the flowery opening…it sounds very much like a dramatic reading of a break-up letter. Really lends itself well to some kind of reading. > > . Dear England, It’s not you, it’s me. I just think that we should start trading with other countries, at least for a while. After that, we’ll see. I’ll always treasure the times we had together. Love, America. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/10 "2017-06-21T12:16:36Z")
Think of the DoI as a declaration of war and the “union” aspect as stating that an allied bloc has been formed to achieve their mutual goals. It doesn’t really form any sort of new government but merely an alliance. The Articles of Confederation and then the Constitution took care of the “forming a government” part. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/11 "2017-06-21T22:51:53Z")
Well, ultimately it was all for naught. The declaration was [Del]revoked[/Del] rejected just before the new millenium kicked in… [John Cleese's Letter to the USA | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/revocation.asp) Yes, I’m beating my opponents to the punch… ---
**Author:** ![whitetho](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whitetho/32/1059_2.png) [@whitetho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whitetho)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/12 "2017-06-21T23:51:05Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > So, I have a question. Is there anything else between the DoI and the Constitution that FURTHER forbids states from acting independently? Or even in the Constitution? Sorry, I’m not up on all the Constitution. Remember that the [Articles of Confederation](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/artconf.asp) were the controlling national compact from 1781 to 1789. Although the national government was not nearly as strong as it would be under the constitution, there were significant restrictions on how independently individual states could act. In particular, Article 6 had the following limitations: [QUOTE=Article 6 of the Articles of Confederation] VI. No State, without the consent of the United States in Congress assembled, shall send any embassy to, or receive any embassy from, or enter into any conference, agreement, alliance or treaty with any King, Prince or State; nor shall any person holding any office of profit or trust under the United States, or any of them, accept any present, emolument, office or title of any kind whatever from any King, Prince or foreign State; nor shall the United States in Congress assembled, or any of them, grant any title of nobility. No two or more States shall enter into any treaty, confederation or alliance whatever between them, without the consent of the United States in Congress assembled, specifying accurately the purposes for which the same is to be entered into, and how long it shall continue. No State shall lay any imposts or duties, which may interfere with any stipulations in treaties, entered into by the United States in Congress assembled, with any King, Prince or State, in pursuance of any treaties already proposed by Congress, to the courts of France and Spain. No vessel of war shall be kept up in time of peace by any State, except such number only, as shall be deemed necessary by the United States in Congress assembled, for the defense of such State, or its trade; nor shall any body of forces be kept up by any State in time of peace, except such number only, as in the judgement of the United States in Congress assembled, shall be deemed requisite to garrison the forts necessary for the defense of such State; but every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage. No State shall engage in any war without the consent of the United States in Congress assembled, unless such State be actually invaded by enemies, or shall have received certain advice of a resolution being formed by some nation of Indians to invade such State, and the danger is so imminent as not to admit of a delay till the United States in Congress assembled can be consulted; nor shall any State grant commissions to any ships or vessels of war, nor letters of marque or reprisal, except it be after a declaration of war by the United States in Congress assembled, and then only against the Kingdom or State and the subjects thereof, against which war has been so declared, and under such regulations as shall be established by the United States in Congress assembled, unless such State be infested by pirates, in which case vessels of war may be fitted out for that occasion, and kept so long as the danger shall continue, or until the United States in Congress assembled shall determine otherwise. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/13 "2017-06-22T01:23:20Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Dear England, > > It’s not you, it’s me. I just think that we should start trading with other countries, at least for a while. After that, we’ll see. I’ll always treasure the times we had together. > > Love, America. Dear Mom, You have been a right bitch to me and I am moving out. Don’t come looking for me or send the cops after me just because I’m only 15. You had your chance to be a good Mom and you blew it 50 different ways. Just like everyone else, I have a right to be me. Good-bye forever. Your offspring. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/14 "2017-06-22T01:35:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **TriPolar** : > > Use the search function with the words “articles” and “confederation” to get lots of threads about what happened between the Declaration and the Constitution. None of that is legally binding either. Well, to be fair, the Articles of Confederation _were_ legally binding, at the time. But they’re not any more because the Constitution replaced them. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/15 "2017-06-22T02:04:26Z")
One of my favorite “little recognized facts,” is that the Declaration of Independence does not have any legal force at all, because it is not a document of the United States government. I’ve read in some places that there have been court cases where some sense of the SPIRIT of it has been held to have some influence, but never more than that. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/16 "2017-06-22T02:59:51Z")
the Declaration of Independence was one of the first times, if not _ **the** _ first time, that the idea that people had certain rights, bestowed on them by the mere fact of their birth, was written down. And that no govt had the authority to subvert these rights. It is the basis for all of the legally binding stuff that followed. mc ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/17 "2017-06-22T05:04:53Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > That was the most manifestly _illegal_ thing in it. 😛 It was illegal under British law. And the Declaration of Independence removed us from British jurisdiction. As I said, this actually is a real legal point. As recently as 1977, the United States Supreme Court cited a British law as legally valid in the United States - because the law in question had been enacted in 1740. But 1776 was the point we set where we said British laws no longer apply to America. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/18 "2017-06-23T03:12:06Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > the Declaration of Independence was one of the first times, if not _ **the** _ first time, that the idea that people had certain rights, bestowed on them by the mere fact of their birth, was written down. And that no govt had the authority to subvert these rights. It is the basis for all of the legally binding stuff that followed. It was not the first time, as is well known. This was covered in Political Science 101, taken as a general ed requirement waaaay back when the dinosaurs roamed the world and I was in university. There was quite the movement including Jean-Jacques Rousseau and his [Social Contract](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Social_Contract) and John Locke and [his belief](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights#John_Locke) in people having natural rights to natural right to life, liberty, and property. The Declaration of Independence is really good, but it was not created in a vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/19 "2017-06-23T03:20:16Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > It was not the first time, as is well known. This was covered in Political Science 101, taken as a general ed requirement waaaay back when the dinosaurs roamed the world and I was in university. There was quite the movement including Jean-Jacques Rousseau and his [Social Contract](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Social_Contract) and John Locke and [his belief](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights#John_Locke) in people having natural rights to natural right to life, liberty, and property. The Declaration of Independence is really good, but it was not created in a vacuum. Yes, I took that class as well. . .I meant in a political document. . .and did say one of the first time. . . mc ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501/20 "2017-06-23T06:28:38Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Dear Mom, > > You have been a right bitch to me and I am moving out. Don’t come looking for me or send the cops after me just because I’m only 15. You had your chance to be a good Mom and you blew it 50 different ways. Just like everyone else, I have a right to be me. Good-bye forever. > > Your offspring. PS: Aunty Spain never stops _her_ kids from doing what they wanted. And Mr Russia is a nice man, I am sure we will be besties always. Suck donkey balls Mum errr Mom. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-looking-at-the-declaration-of-independence/789501.md?page=2)