# so is a book racist if it doesn't explicitly mention that there are some minority characters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555 "2013-04-13T01:02:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/21 "2013-04-13T17:51:59Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You might want to check out Le Guin’s Earthsea books. She doesn’t make a big deal of it, but none of the characters in the first book are white skinned. In the second book a major character is white skinned. When a made-for-TV miniseries of the first book was made, the protagonist and some of the others where played by white actors. Ms. Le Guin disapproved and removed herself from all contact with it. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/22 "2013-04-13T17:53:46Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > I think that’s an interesting question, because I do USUALLY think of “white” as the default skin color when I’m reading. I’m white, and no, I don’t have any black friends - I do have black co-workers, but there aren’t even many of them. > > I read primarily fantasy and science fiction, and what I find interesting is that when an author takes the time to set up a specific ethnic element in their worldbuilding, then I’m more likely to think of the characters as non-white. > > Examples where I can’t remember one way or the other, so I’m just going on my mental image: > > Zelazny’s Amber Cycle - everyone’s white because there’s not an immediate textual reason for them not to be. > > Zelazny’s Lord of Light - everyone’s Indian (not Native American) because they’re on a planet that’s expressly Hindu. > > I guess that does make me racist because I default to white, but I’m not too worried about it. Everyone defaults to their own ethnicity: look at the centuries of depictions of Jesus & Mary, all with local garb, buildings and skintones. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/23 "2013-04-13T18:23:56Z")
Speaking of adaptation race changes remember Avatar The Last Airbender? The TV show presents a fantasy world where two main characters look vaguely Inuit with obviously Inuit influenced culture and clothes. The plot involves a world war between four magic using nations, and each nation has their own ethnic look. The live action movie(one of the worst movies evar) turns the two Inuit characters white and casts an Indian actor in the villain role(in the show he was a light skinned “asian”). * * * Beyond that I was kinda annoyed with Firefly and the invisible Chinese, and don’t give me that “the actors are all really mixed race, you just have to imagine it” thing.😛 ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/24 "2013-04-13T19:23:14Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Actually I find it worse when they make a point to describe the race of certain characters, as if there is a white default and they must tell us when someone isn’t. A few years back I heard Neil Gaiman speak about his then-new book, _Anansi Boys_, where the protagonist and most of the major characters are black. This isn’t really spelled out in the book (although the few white characters are described as such), and Gaiman explained that he thought it would be awkward and unrealistic for a black character to keep noticing how his friends and relatives were black too. Since the main character is the son of an African god and a Caribbean woman, Gaiman thought his race would be pretty obvious to readers. But he said that while some people got it others did not, and that he’d actually been criticized for sloppy research about (white) Southern culture because of an early scene set in Florida where characters spoke in a black dialect and served Caribbean style dishes. So a writer (particularly a white writer) can’t necessarily take it for granted that readers will pick up on the fact that some characters aren’t intended to be white. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/25 "2013-04-13T19:35:08Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > In fact, as one would expect, on the matter of characters’ races the movies followed the books quite closely (except that they gave a lot more screen time than the text would warrant to the black kid who did the Quidditch commentary). I enjoyed seeing him in [a non-popping](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QkRznlJiek) role though. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/26 "2013-04-13T21:55:27Z")
I possess a paperback copy of Octavia Butler’s “Dawn”. There are two white women on the cover. This despite the fact that the protagonist is a black woman and clearly described as such. The other women in the story were fairly marginal characters. My guess is that the publisher believed there was no way a “mainstream” audience would buy a science fiction novel with a large, powerful black woman on the cover. This may be true…but dayum. They couldn’t think of anything else besides white women with feathered hair to represent the book? With all the cool space ships, tentacled aliens, and other strange things in that story? Quite disappointing. I imagine Butler was real ticked off about it (at least I hope she was). And I bet there were some readers who were ticked off when they realized they had been bamboozled. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/27 "2013-04-13T22:18:21Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I possess a paperback copy of Octavia Butler’s “Dawn”. There are two white women on the cover. This despite the fact that the protagonist is a black woman and clearly described as such. The other women in the story were fairly marginal characters. Looks like the [current edition](http://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Xenogenesis-Bk-Octavia-Butler/dp/0446603775) of this book does have a black woman (by herself) on the cover, but Amazon has used copies of the [edition you’re referring to](http://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Octavia-E-Butler/dp/0446513636/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0) from the 1980s with two white women on the cover. This sort of thing has not totally vanished, though. A couple of years ago Justine Larbalestier’s novel _Liar_ was published with a cover photo showing a white girl with straight hair. The main character is described as a dark-skinned black girl with “nappy” hair. There were enough complaints about this, including from the author herself, that the [cover photo was changed](http://www.amazon.com/Liar-Justine-Larbalestier/dp/1599905191/) to show a black girl instead…although still not one I’d describe as being dark-complexioned or having nappy hair. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/28 "2013-04-13T22:33:48Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Looks like the [current edition](http://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Xenogenesis-Bk-Octavia-Butler/dp/0446603775) of this book does have a black woman (by herself) on the cover, but Amazon has used copies of the [edition you’re referring to](http://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Octavia-E-Butler/dp/0446513636/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0) from the 1980s with two white women on the cover. Thanks for providing those links. Looking at the two, it’s so hard to believe they were used to represent the same book. What’s sad is that the edition I have with the white women is from 1987. Not from an ancient era when no one knew black people could read and write, but towards the tail end of a decade when black people were finally getting some respect in popular culture. Black people were cool in 1987! But I guess not cool enough. I didn’t discover Octavia Butler until I was in graduate school, though I’ve been a devourer of science fiction since high school. Maybe I would have known who she was a lot earlier, at the very least, if the cover of her books hadn’t been whitewashed. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/29 "2013-04-13T22:44:51Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > A few years back I heard Neil Gaiman speak about his then-new book, _Anansi Boys_, where the protagonist and most of the major characters are black. This isn’t really spelled out in the book (although the few white characters are described as such), and Gaiman explained that he thought it would be awkward and unrealistic for a black character to keep noticing how his friends and relatives were black too. Since the main character is the son of an African god and a Caribbean woman, Gaiman thought his race would be pretty obvious to readers. But he said that while some people got it others did not, and that he’d actually been criticized for sloppy research about (white) Southern culture because of an early scene set in Florida where characters spoke in a black dialect and served Caribbean style dishes. So a writer (particularly a white writer) can’t necessarily take it for granted that readers will pick up on the fact that some characters aren’t intended to be white. I admit I don’t see a good solution either – other than describing everyone’s race, which gets clumsy. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/30 "2013-04-14T13:53:13Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Imagine a German book from the 30’s talking about the hero’s “pure arian blood” or mentioning often, and in a positive way his blond hair and blue eyes. ‘The Iron Dream’, the book written by Adolf Hitler! 😉 > **[The Iron Dream](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Dream)** > > The Iron Dream is a metafictional 1972 alternate history novel by American author Norman Spinrad. The book has a nested narrative that tells a story within a story. On the surface, the novel presents a post-apocalyptic adventure tale entitled Lord of the Swastika, written by an alternate-history Adolf Hitler shortly before his death in 1953. In this timeline, Hitler emigrated from Germany to the United States in 1919 after the Great War, and used his modest artistic skills to become first a pul... And no I don’t think a book is necessarily racist if it doesn’t mention any minority ethnic characters but if a specific description isn’t made I imagine people tend to default them to their own majority race/culture. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing either, just the way people are. Re Harry Potter books and movies I personally was more annoyed that they made Mrs Weasley thin and Hermione blonde than anything else… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/31 "2013-04-14T19:10:43Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Which looks just like a mirror image of “I’m not a racist, but…” That is simultaneously utter bullshit and a personal insult. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/32 "2013-04-14T19:13:40Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > **Skald** made it quite explicit that he had not seen the movies and was not asking about them, so that wasn’t it. No, I didn’t. I saw the first two movies in theatres, and snippets of the others on television from time to time. I said I didn’t CARE about the movies and so wouldn’t be talking about them myself, though I didn’t object if others chose to. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/33 "2013-04-14T19:28:29Z")
So is an OP racist if he doesn’t explicitly declare himself not to be racist? Note that I’m not accusing this or any other specific OP of being racist. Just asking in general. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/34 "2013-04-14T20:24:47Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > I think that’s an interesting question, because I do USUALLY think of “white” as the default skin color when I’m reading. I’m white, and no, I don’t have any black friends - I do have black co-workers, but there aren’t even many of them. > > I read primarily fantasy and science fiction, and what I find interesting is that when an author takes the time to set up a specific ethnic element in their worldbuilding, then I’m more likely to think of the characters as non-white. > > Examples where I can’t remember one way or the other, so I’m just going on my mental image: > > Zelazny’s Amber Cycle - everyone’s white because there’s not an immediate textual reason for them not to be. > > Zelazny’s Lord of Light - everyone’s Indian (not Native American) because they’re on a planet that’s expressly Hindu. > > I guess that does make me racist because I default to white, but I’m not too worried about it. I’m not sure that makes you a racist. When I was young and foolish enough to read Piers Anthony, I recall forming a mental image of Stile (from the _Apprentice Adept_) series) as black. I don’t think his race is ever specified in the story, and he just felt black to me somehow. Sheen as well. ---
**Author:** ![Renifer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71c47a/32.png) [@Renifer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renifer)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/35 "2013-04-14T21:50:53Z")
No, it means the characters’ race is not vital to the story. It’s not a white person’s story or a black person’s story. It’s just a person’s story. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/36 "2013-04-14T22:24:02Z")
No more than a movie is sexist if it doesn’t pass the Bechdel test. But if there’s a trend across the industry in the books that get published and promoted or whitewashing on covers [things like this](http://www.katehart.net/2012/05/uncovering-ya-covers-2011.html), it raises questions about the industry altogether. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/37 "2013-04-14T22:59:29Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > i’m thinking of the _Walking Dead_, though i’m also not accusing them of being racist, as it appears to be more of an “issue with the actor whom they couldn’t fire for whatever reason” thing. it is hilarious that they immediately replaced him with another black character when they did finally wrote him off though. Wait… what? (the issue with another actor thing, not the here’s the new black guy thing) ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/38 "2013-04-15T00:08:38Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Actually I find it worse when they make a point to describe the race of certain characters, as if there is a white default and they must tell us when someone isn’t. That’s one thing I noticed about Robert J. Sawyer’s books; he pretty much describes the skin color of everybody, without assuming that white is the default. He’s talked about it several times on his site, like this article: [Is it racist to mention skin color?](http://sfwriter.com/2008/03/is-it-racist-to-mention-skin-color.html) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/39 "2013-04-15T00:28:04Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > I admit I don’t see a good solution either – other than describing everyone’s race, which gets clumsy. Just have a character make a comment about how odd it was seeing a white person in that area or something similar. Or have any white guy that shows up talk about it being a “black town” or whatever. It doesn’t take that much creativity to put it in if you think it’s important. Though you have to be an idiot to read people using black dialect, recognize it as such, and still assume that the characters are white and that the author made a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555/40 "2013-04-15T01:40:27Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Just have a character make a comment about how odd it was seeing a white person in that area or something similar. Or have any white guy that shows up talk about it being a “black town” or whatever. It doesn’t take that much creativity to put it in if you think it’s important. What if you’re writing science fiction set a century or three in the future and there ain’t no such thing as “white town” or “black town?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-a-book-racist-if-it-doesnt-explicitly-mention-that-there-are-some-minority-characters/655555.md?page=3)