# So, is acknowledging reality racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687 "2009-07-20T23:03:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/21 "2009-07-21T20:32:12Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > “That’s bullshit. There are plenty of black people in the fashion industry.” > > Noone said otherwise, I would however be very surprised if they were more than a minority unless you’re claiming they’re overrepresented compared to the normal population. I’d be willing to bet its disproportionate as the fashion industry tends to be more urban. What would be more interesting to see is if it is proportional as compared to the general urban population. > [@](#): > > "Or to put it more simply, it’s called color theory, and it’s a science as well as an art, " > > At the very best it can be a science about perception, which inherently has both subjective and objective components. The very fact that different cultures clearly have different colour preferences even inside the same skin colour shows it cant possibly be an entirely objective field of study. It’s not entirely, but that’s where the art comes in. To argue that trying to put a man in a lavender shirt is discrimination is preposterous and makes a mockery of the very notion of racism. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/22 "2009-07-21T20:39:34Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Your friend who stopped you is the racist, you just have fashion sense… I’m guessing this is the first time he’s has ever heard such an accusation. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/23 "2009-07-21T20:56:44Z")
I don’t think it’s racist, but I think the idea that "black skin " works better with certain colors is a bit provincial: “black” skin varies enormously, and you really can’t say anything about it in general–for one thing, the underlying red tones vary a great deal, and that really affects color choices. If you are talking about a specific individual: “Suzie looks amazing in gold” or even a more specific type, “There is a shade you find in really dark west African skin sometimes that seems to turn lime green into a whole new color”, I think it’s fine. But “Black people look better in X” sounds, not racist, but inexperience/simplistic to me. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/24 "2009-07-21T21:25:14Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Well duh. Do we really have to include a caveat on every opinion to make sure others don’t believe we’re stating an absolute fact? > Odesio Considering the question I was answering, I believe it was appropriate ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/25 "2009-07-21T21:58:52Z")
If **smiling bandit** ’s account is accurate, he never used the term “black” at all: > [@smiling bandit](#): > > I commented that a certain colour of shirt worked well for them, perhaps because it played well of their skin tone. That’s not a blanket statement of opinion that some shirt color looks good on black people; it’s a very specific statement of opinion that the shirt color looks good on _that person_, with speculation as to why (interplay with skin color). Getting bent out of shape over a comment like that requires pretty hair-trigger offendometer settings (IMO). That a particular shirt color goes well with the subject’s skin tone is obviously an opinion, but that the subject has whatever skin tone he or she has is just as obviously fact. (I believe that is the “reality” referred to in the OP.) ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/26 "2009-07-21T22:30:31Z")
Reminds me of boxing announcers. There will be a white guy fighting a black guy, but the announcers will insist on saying things like, “And Frasier, the one in the \*red \*trunks…” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/27 "2009-07-21T23:25:53Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Well, colour me (ba-dum-kssh) surprised that a certain relative cut me off, perhaps a little alarmed I was making a racist comment. Alright, I suppose it’s possible I’m wrong, but… I don’t think ackowledging reality is racist. There’s nothing racist about your comment, potential caveats about generalizations aside. What’s happened in society is that people have gotten nervous about any comment that refers directly to race, either because they don’t want to be accused of racism by someone else, or because they are not sure what racism is in particular. I think **astorian** ’s version is a little narrow; I’d define racism as determining people’s merits and qualities based on racial appearance. But saying a shirt looks good on a person with a particular skin tone isn’t a statement about the person’s worth. And for the record, yeah, some clothes definitely look better on people with different skin tones. [LeBron James looks cool in this white suit.](http://espn.go.com/page2/s/shanoff/030627.html) This would not work on me. I don’t think dreadlocks or shaved heads look very good on white people either (and I’ve tried the latter), but that’s a post for IMHO I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/28 "2009-07-22T00:41:39Z")
It’s funny, so often when someone posts something asking “Was this racist of me?”, or the like, it almost always _is_ racist. I opened this thread to see just what the flagrantly ridiculous instance of racism was this time. Boy, was I pleasantly surprised. Yes, absolutely skin color is relevant to clothing color choices, and I don’t really see how anyone could think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/29 "2009-07-22T00:46:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And for the record, yeah, some clothes definitely look better on people with different skin tones. [LeBron James looks cool in this white suit.](http://espn.go.com/page2/s/shanoff/030627.html) This would not work on me. I’m White and like white-ish suits, although I am dark-eyed and (still mostly) dark-haired. But look at dress-up events like the Oscars and there does seem to be a fairly inflexible rule that white clothing is for Black men only. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/30 "2009-07-22T00:51:21Z")
> [@brad\_d](#): > > If **smiling bandit** ’s account is accurate, he never used the term “black” at all:That’s not a blanket statement of opinion that some shirt color looks good on black people; it’s a very specific statement of opinion that the shirt color looks good on _that person_, with speculation as to why (interplay with skin color). Getting bent out of shape over a comment like that requires pretty hair-trigger offendometer settings (IMO). > > That a particular shirt color goes well with the subject’s skin tone is obviously an opinion, but that the subject has whatever skin tone he or she has is just as obviously fact. (I believe that is the “reality” referred to in the OP.) > [@brad\_d](#): > > If **smiling bandit** ’s account is accurate, he never used the term “black” at all:That’s not a blanket statement of opinion that some shirt color looks good on black people; it’s a very specific statement of opinion that the shirt color looks good on _that person_, with speculation as to why (interplay with skin color). Getting bent out of shape over a comment like that requires pretty hair-trigger offendometer settings (IMO). > > That a particular shirt color goes well with the subject’s skin tone is obviously an opinion, but that the subject has whatever skin tone he or she has is just as obviously fact. (I believe that is the “reality” referred to in the OP.) I read it as saying “My black friends look good in \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ , a color my white friends can’t wear”. This is the downside to using “their” as a neutral single person pronoun–either reading is plausible, I think. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/31 "2009-07-22T01:20:41Z")
In my profession, we don’t consider it racist to note that black skin is harder to start IV’s on ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/32 "2009-07-22T01:58:17Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > It’s still opinion, though. That many people may agree just means it’s widely-accepted opinion. That’s true only to an extent. Just as their are notes that don’t go together musically, there are color combinations that are discordant. I guess the one assumption you could challenge is that I’m talking about color theory as it applies to humans and most people believe that making people look healthy is a good thing. If you are a goth or a vampire, granted, different rules would apply. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/33 "2009-07-22T14:32:17Z")
Matching clothing to skin color is no different than trying to match it to hair or eye color. One of my friends looks funny in turquoise because it clashes with her blue eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/34 "2009-07-22T15:01:13Z")
Suggesting a shirt is not racist. Suggesting a [suit](http://www.pimphats.com/ecatalog/index.php/cPath/27_33?osCsid=871cb20c195d72b9e9755fa34bf1f9f9) might be. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/35 "2009-07-22T15:42:25Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I read it as saying “My black friends look good in \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ , a color my white friends can’t wear”. This is the downside to using “their” as a neutral single person pronoun–either reading is plausible, I think. Well, another “white boy” might be able to, but this particular color would blend a little _too_ well with my skin. I’m pretty average for Causasian skin, and I woudl not look well in lilac or lavender. One particular friend could and did wear that. He the sharpest dresser I’ve ever known. He was also the first black man I ever knew intellectually, and he did affect my views of the world, and my sense of dress style. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/36 "2009-07-22T15:46:21Z")
I’m determined to make this sort of thing go away, at least in my circles. I hang out with lots of white people, and lots of really pale white people. I have no hesitation in talking about my brown skin - news flash, it is brown! I also will say quite flatly that I think such-and-such a color does go better with really pale skin, or that I can’t wear something because of my brown skin. It’s stupid to go around avoiding the very topic of color. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/37 "2009-07-22T15:59:39Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > In my profession, we don’t consider it racist to note that black skin is harder to start IV’s on May I hijack this thread to ask: 😕 And no, the OP wasn’t being racist, fer Pete’s sake. For all the reasons stated above. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/38 "2009-07-22T16:00:08Z")
We need to get [Professor Badass](http://www.cracked.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/timepanties2.jpg) on the case. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/39 "2009-07-22T16:01:08Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > May I hijack this thread to ask: 😕 Maybe it’s just harder to see a vein. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687/40 "2009-07-22T18:56:35Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Let me posit a certain scenario. I have had friends who are black. Well, African-American (plus some people who are black and African, and some who are black and not African). While buying a suit, I commented that a certain colour of shirt worked well for them, perhaps because it played well of their skin tone. And I think it did. I don’t think it would work well with my skin tone, which is white but a little rosy in the face. > > Well, colour me (ba-dum-kssh) surprised that a certain relative cut me off, perhaps a little alarmed I was making a racist comment. Alright, I suppose it’s possible I’m wrong, but… I don’t think ackowledging reality is racist. I’ve known people with very dark skin color. They looked very good in a lilac/violet shirt. I really don’t think someone with a lighter skin color would look well in the same although it’s posible I’m wrong there, too. > > So, am I the next incarnation of Hitler, ready to lead the KK… or just somebody saying what colors match (to me, anyhow). I’m not going to insult you, but I WILL say this: you obviously didn’t know your friend(s) nearly as well as you thought you did. I would be VERY wary of commenting on a black friend’s skin tone unless I was SURE that it wouldn’t be offensive. It’s not the same thing, but… would you tell an overweight female friend “This dress is perfect for you, because it hides your big butt”? No sane person should do that, UNLESS he/she is absolutely certain that it wouldn’t hurt the friend’s feelings. In ANY situation where you’ve unintentionally hurt somebody’s feelings, you should immediately, humbly, and sincerely apologize. It doesn’t MATTER if you meant no offense- if you’ve hurt a friend’s feelings, and this person’s friendship matetrs to you, you owe it to them to say how sorry you are you hurt them, that you meant well, and that you wouldn’t have said it if you’d known how hurtful it would be. Getting defensive (or worse, getting sarcastically defensive) is the worst thing you can do, unless you’re ready to sever the friendship completely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-acknowledging-reality-racism/503687.md?page=3)