GMTA?
A little solidarity goes a long way.
But look, if you want the Messiah to come back – all you have to do is be the Messiah. Not a difficult task in and of itself. And of course, perhaps you will succeed where others have only gotten themselves killed. Personally, when I had a half dozen people following me around and calling me Jesus at one point, I freaked and got the heck out of town – and so I have lived to tell the tale. But then I have never had much faith.
“Great Minds Think Alike” 
You know, now I understand why you were so insistent that we define terms: “which ‘Jesus’ do you mean?” over on the C&L-III thread. I always wondered what the J stood for. 
He bloody well better be! I don’t wanna find out that I’ve been house-sitting during his 2000-year vacation for nothin’.
How do you guys think I should tell him that his dog didn’t make it? Should I just go ahead and buy him a new puppy? What about his prize rose garden that got trampled during the wars? I’ll be damned if I’m gonna replant all that for ‘im! Or maybe I’ll be damned if I don’t . . .
See?! Now you’ve gone and got me all worked up.
Joel. It’s Hebrew for goat I am told.
**
Everything is relative. After all, 2,000 years is a smidgen of time compared to, say, the creation of the universe. And (if we were going to take the Biblical view) isn’t a million dollars but a penny to God?
**
Kinda like what I was saying in my “There is no such thing as a Christian Fundamentalist” thread, eh?
Yep, you are right. And the more cults we have - and by cult I mean the Jim Jones-types of the world, not Mormons! - the more likely Jesus will be shot while reaching for his identification…
Yer pal,
Satan
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Three months, two weeks, four days, 17 hours, 32 minutes and 39 seconds.
4389 cigarettes not smoked, saving $548.65.
Life saved: 2 weeks, 1 day, 5 hours, 45 minutes.
Er, well, not in so many words I don’t think. Unless God is actually Scrooge McDuck…
But, Philip Dick, the author, did have a theory that really this world was largely an illusion, that we really are living in ancient Rome and Jesus died just a little while ago. The illusion that so much time has passed is the work of the devil, who wishes us to give up in despair.
No, no. That event has something to do with that “cold day in hell.”
And while we’re on the subject, isn’t it part of oral church tradition that Jesus told the Chicago Cubs “don’t do anything until I get back?”
So, (for you who take this seriously) another 50,000 years could pass before Jesus returns? Why not a million years? What happens if man destroys himself before Christ returns?
Do you have a citation for this? I read an interview where he explained all this, but I can’t find the webpage again, and I’d really like to see it once more.
-Ben
Ben –
Just one citation is kind of hard, since Dick only ever had a dozen good ideas (eleven more than most people, of course) and simply kept recycling them. So this one appears all over the place during the last decade of his career. I’ve got a book of his essays at home though and may be able to get you a reference out of there come Monday, but it may not be the specific instance you are looking for.
Joel
Originally posted by Satan
I’m not disagreeing with your sentiment on Fundies, Satan, (in fact, I think you’re right on target) but Christ’s return will not be like his first visit. He’ll be coming not as a servant and sacrifice, but as a king and judge. Hence the whimsical bumper sticker: “Jesus is coming, and is he pissed!”
DaveW said
Even allowing that you are citing traditional wisdom and the implicit ideas of Scripture, Dave, the question is, “Who sez?” If you wish to give the Biblically-based viewpoint full force, fine, but you’d be in a strong minority even among Christians here. I suspect that if you asked Chaim or Zev, “When the Messiah comes, is it possible that the rabbinic leadership will team up with the civil authorities to have him put to death?” his response would be “Are you BS-ing me? No way!” – and would use the pilpulim he would adduce in support of that to show why, in his view, Jesus of Nazareth was not the expected Messiah, but a nice guy with weird ideas who fell afoul of the authorities and got his just desserts for some of his radical ideas, or something of that sort. (Izzy? Wanna take a crack at this?)
And, though I have no proof anyone else could accept, I am reasonably convinced that, in effect, he will be back shortly and go through the same rigamarole again. And once again, only those with “ears to hear” will understand. I’ve said this before and been laughed down. (Let me note that I am not expecting Jesus of Nazareth in the flesh per se, but a person who will be for our day what Jesus was for his, and teach and suffer as Jesus did.) I’ve hinted at this before; now I’m being blunt about it. Sitting alone at a computer hooked to the Internet in 1998, I “became one of the scholars in the Temple.”
Uh, well, Scripture sez, if I’m not mistaken. If you don’t like the notion, fine. But I don’t think I’m saying anything that isn’t backed up by the Bible.
No, of course they wouldn’t. I understand and respect that Chaim, Zev and many others don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah. I believe he was. Their understanding of Scripture and the Messiah doesn’t change my understanding of the Messiah’s return.
If you don’t mind my asking, then what was the point of Jesus coming in the first place? My belief is that he accomplished redemption for mankind 2000 or so years ago. Once and for all. When he returns, it will be to judge mankind and rule over the earth. Once and for all. For Jesus (or a proto-Jesus) to return to earth and go through it all again is redundant and useless. Unless he didn’t get it right the first time. The reason Jesus didn’t remain on earth was so that his followers could preach the Gospel to all nations. If it was necessary for him to suffer more, he would have stayed around and suffered more, IMO.
Dave, Dave, Dave. I am not dissing your faith by what I say. Allow me to clarify.
This was in reference to Jesus coming again “in glory,” check? No argument that you’re quoting chapter and verse of the traditional understanding.
Yeah, we’re clear on what they believe and why. Here’s my point, in syllogism form:
You mean he could have just shown up, undergone the Crucifixion and Resurrection, and left again? (No, I don’t seriously believe you meant that.) His teachings are an important part of the mix, too; don’t get so focused on the Redemption as to lose that part of the message. I don’t have a clue as to the metaphysical why he’s gonna go through it again, only that he is. The more mundane reason, if you don’t mind my saying so, is that when he repeats his message again for 21st Century ears and hearts, he’ll be seen by the “uncircumcised of heart” (Paul’s term) of today as preaching evil, because it falls against their expectations of what God’s righteousness is. He will therefore end up dying as a heretic against the True Faith. And that saddens me beyond belief.
Then again, it is quite possible, as least metaphorically, that the messiah, Jesus, as Prince of the Kingdom, really is already with us. And that it is only a matter of people coming to have faith that will ultimately fulfill scripture. If there are true christians, does not God judge the unfaithful others by how they treat his followers? And do they not live almost as kings compared to the non-believers? The Church is the body of Christ, to put it another way. Certaintly, members of the Church have been put to death from time to time. But since we already have he teachings, why would he come back except in this gestalt form? Perhaps this is the way of his return that is unexpected by those not of faith – a secret, quiet way – such that he is already here and he reigned for two millenia already but only those willing to believe can find this.
pkbites said: “So is Christ coming back or what?”
Yup.
Then he said: “Okay, it’s 2000. where is he?”
Jesus answers: “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (Matt 24:36).
Polycarp I liked most of your commentary. I’d heard the 6000 years + 1000 years for the thousand year reign theory before too, but as the scripture above indicates, it’s not scriptural. And yes, we are to live as if He could come back at any minute, because, in fact, He could come back at any minute!
Polycarp, I didn’t think, nor did I intend to imply, that you were dissing my faith. Even if you were, though, my faith can handle it. It’s been dissed before.
Not to build a wheel around this, but nothing I read in the Bible shows Jesus as returning to carry out a second ministry. Yes, his teachings were important, and I don’t downplay them at all. But since we have had his teachings for 2000 or so years, and still people don’t respond to them, what good would it do to inaugurate Ministry II, The Sequel?
At least two passages indicate to me that Jesus is not going to return in the same way he was incarnated before. Acts 1:10,11 states “[The apostles] were looking intently up into the sky as [Jesus] was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. ‘Men of Galilee,’ they said, ‘why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.’” This indicates, not the birth of a child who grows into a man and begins a ministry among the people, but a return from heaven in the same manner in which he ascended, or “through the clouds”, to use a popular phrase.
Another passage, from Matthew 19:28, has Jesus telling his disciples “…at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” While this doesn’t specifically mention his return, it does indicate a very different aspect to Jesus, not necessarily reflected in his ministry. I don’t see it as indicating the type of return you allude to.
I don’t want to appear argumentative, but it seems to me that your basis for your theory is a formless “hunch” or “gut feeling.” Unless you can come up with a better argument for Jesus returning only to be a misunderstood hippie-type teacher who is rejected all over again, except for a select few, I’ll stick with the concept that he will be judging mankind, establishing the Kingdom of God on earth and ruling it.
Well, geez, if you want to go by the text of the Bible, that’s a completely different story.
And it completely supports what I said in my last post, as this passage follows shortly:
“And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit”
So, Jesus already came back to his followers in the form of the Holy Spirit. Heck, he wasn’t gone a week. Case closed.
Well, I guess you win on a technicality, since, being part of the Holy Trinity, the Spirit is God in man. So, okay.
Still, there is the question of the corporeal Jesus, who ascended bodily into heaven, returning. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit notwithstanding, Christ’s return to earth in bodily form has not occurred yet.