# So.... \*IS\* ISIS a state? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907 "2015-09-29T02:06:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/21 "2015-09-29T12:33:19Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Does Somalia have an economy? Rwanda? North Yemen? South Yemen? Eritrea? Uh… you might want to do some refresher reading. The two Yemens were unified in 1990, and constituted an approximately functional country until the present civil war and Saudi intervention. Rwanda of course fell into butchery in 1994, but has recovered quite considerably since, politically and economically. Eritrea is a poor, violent and authoritarian country, and did itself no favors in fighting Ethiopia, but that war ended in 2000. Economically at least, there has been significant recovery. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/22 "2015-09-29T13:09:19Z")
Per the Chance doctrine: “To be considered a state all that is required is to announce your statehood and make it stick against all comers” I’d say they’re well on their way. ISIS is not a highly-functioning state, but it is functioning that way. If they’re still there in another five years they’ll start to be recognized by some other state and start to acquire some legitimacy on the world stage. But it’s always part 2 ‘make it stick’ that’s the tricky part. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/23 "2015-09-29T13:18:18Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Their de facto border has some fluidity, but it can be drawn; there are maps. It can be stated with some (not necessarily perfect) factualness whether one is or is not in IS territory at a given moment. > > A population of several million people lives in that territory, has been living there for more than a year in most cases. You can’t _have_ that many people living that long without there being an internal economy, whether some entity is ‘controlling’ it or not. Obviously being in perpetual war is a serious handicap, but it’s not automatically fatal, particularly as they control [oil and gas resources that even their battlefield enemies will pay them for](http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/isis-makes-three-times-much-oil-smuggling-previously-thought-officials-n397836). By this standard, any gang-controlled territory in, say, Baltimore constitutes a political subdivision. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/24 "2015-09-29T14:19:14Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > It’s kind of the minimum. According to whom? Please cite the source of the criteria you are using. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/25 "2015-09-29T14:28:18Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Per the Chance doctrine: > > “To be considered a state all that is required is to announce your statehood and make it stick against all comers” > > I’d say they’re well on their way. > > ISIS is not a highly-functioning state, but it is functioning that way. If they’re still there in another five years they’ll start to be recognized by some other state and start to acquire some legitimacy on the world stage. > > But it’s always part 2 ‘make it stick’ that’s the tricky part. I don’t think so, their mantra is that they don’t accept nationalism or the concept of a nation state whatsoever, as this goes against the idea of one Ummah under the Caliph. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/26 "2015-09-29T17:06:30Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Uh… you might want to do some refresher reading. . > [@](#): > > Rwanda doesn’t belong on this list at all Thanks for the corrections. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/27 "2015-09-29T17:20:51Z")
Is North Cyprus a State? Is Nagorno-Karabakh a state? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/28 "2015-09-29T17:33:22Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Is North Cyprus a State? Is Nagorno-Karabakh a state? Is Jefferson a state? A state which is not recognized by any existing state is no state. Otherwise, anything anywhere could be a state by simple proclamation. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/29 "2015-09-29T19:29:58Z")
“Rwanda is so freaking centrally governed that they have national street-sweeping day once a week.” Sounds alright. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/30 "2015-09-29T20:01:56Z")
The only real answer to this is “that depends- how do you define a state?” There isn’t some single keeper of the term “state”, and probably the most important part of the question is about what you intend to do with the answer. “State” and “Non-State” are not really binaries. There are countless levels of political organization, from a hunter-gatherer band in the rainforest to the UN. There are rebel movements, ungoverned areas, overseas holdings, proxy states, governments in exile…all manner of things that are kind of like a state, and kind of not. In a world where not every central government is strong, when does one cross the magic line into becoming a state? That depends on who you ask and why you are asking. Personally, the only definition of a “state” that makes sense to me is one involving recognition. The only real meaning of “state”, to me, revolves around being able to engage in foreign relations. Without foreign relations, you’ve got a civil war or rebel faction. With just foreign backing, you’ve got a puppet government or proxy force. But when you are engaging in actual foreign relations, you’ve got a state. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/31 "2015-09-29T20:08:26Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > “Rwanda is so freaking centrally governed that they have national street-sweeping day once a week.” > > Sounds alright. My correction- it’s one a month, on the last Saturday of the month in Kigali. All able bodied people aged 18-65 are required to participate. I’ve had a lot of friends come back from Kigali comment on how remarkably clean it is. Kagame has plenty of flaw, but you can’t claim he doesn’t govern the place. [https://challenges.openideo.com/challenge/vibrant-cities/inspiration/cleaning-day](https://challenges.openideo.com/challenge/vibrant-cities/inspiration/cleaning-day) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/32 "2015-09-29T20:12:33Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Is North Cyprus a State? Is Nagorno-Karabakh a state? They are very state-like, at least. Whatever standards you choose that would include all the UN states, all apply to these as well, with the sole exception of _general_ recognition by other states. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > A state which is not recognized by any existing state is no state. How many does it take? The examples above are recognized by one and three other states, respectively. One hundred thirty-six states recognize Palestine, despite it being less self-determinative than Nagorno-Karabakh by some measures. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/33 "2015-09-29T20:23:09Z")
Here’s the difference, I hear how they collect taxes and utility fees. If ISIS is a state then the people should be getting something back for that - infrastructure, protection from other states, law enforcement … otherwise it is just extortion/stealing. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/34 "2015-09-29T20:26:16Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Personally, the only definition of a “state” that makes sense to me is one involving recognition. The only real meaning of “state”, to me, revolves around being able to engage in foreign relations. There are NGOs, which no one including themselves calls “states,” which engage in more effective foreign relations than some recognized states. Unless you intentionally define “foreign relations” in a way which restricts it to bodies meeting the other, widely-understood terms of statehood: territory, population, internal economy, self-government, sense of ethnocultural distinction, expression of sovereign self-determination, and ability to protect and assert these things. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/35 "2015-09-29T20:56:15Z")
If you think about it, a state needs : a. Enough military forces/terrain obstacles that neighboring states and rebels can’t just take over without paying a heavy price. The “blood price” has to be high enough to discourage, say, neighboring states taking over just for the extra money or territory. OR, it needs agreements with other states who have such military forces and who have a reputation to keep their word. b. A functioning economy to keep (a) going c. A government with some kind of succession plan and control of the military forces to keep (a) going That’s all you actually need. All 3 mean that the state is stable, at least temporarily so, and worth putting on a map. IS may be close to this status. Ultimately, what defines a state is “I (or my best friends) have more weapons, and we say it’s a state, whatcha gonna do?” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/36 "2015-09-29T21:10:05Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Here’s the difference, I hear how they collect taxes and utility fees. If ISIS is a state then the people should be getting something back for that - infrastructure, protection from other states, law enforcement … otherwise it is just extortion/stealing. [Arguably, they do.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2015/02/05/how-much-of-a-state-is-the-islamic-state/) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/37 "2015-09-29T23:15:26Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > If you think about it, a state needs : > > a. Enough military forces/terrain obstacles that neighboring states and rebels can’t just take over without paying a heavy price. The “blood price” has to be high enough to discourage, say, neighboring states taking over just for the extra money or territory. OR, it needs agreements with other states who have such military forces and who have a reputation to keep their word. > b. A functioning economy to keep (a) going > c. A government with some kind of succession plan and control of the military forces to keep (a) going > > That’s all you actually need. All 3 mean that the state is stable, at least temporarily so, and worth putting on a map. IS may be close to this status. Ultimately, what defines a state is “I (or my best friends) have more weapons, and we say it’s a state, whatcha gonna do?” Okay, so you think the Lords Resistance Army established a state in the former Congo? And that Bomo Haram has established a state in Nigeria? And the Moro Islamic Liberation Front has established a state in the Philippines? And the FARC runs a state in Colombia? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/38 "2015-09-29T23:36:43Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > There are NGOs, which no one including themselves calls “states,” which engage in more effective foreign relations than some recognized states. Unless you intentionally define “foreign relations” in a way which restricts it to bodies meeting the other, widely-understood terms of statehood: territory, population, internal economy, self-government, sense of ethnocultural distinction, expression of sovereign self-determination, and ability to protect and assert these things. Yes, all of the above. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/39 "2015-09-30T00:08:51Z")
They’re making their own coins. I can’t find the video now (I think it was on Live Leak) but I saw a clip of a bunch of ISIS goons paving a street using one of those big roller machines. I think some people are uncomfortable acknowledging that states aren’t far removed from criminal gangs running a protection racket and collecting your tribute. For your own good, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/40 "2015-09-30T01:40:18Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Okay, so you think the Lords Resistance Army established a state in the former Congo? And that Bomo Haram has established a state in Nigeria? And the Moro Islamic Liberation Front has established a state in the Philippines? And the FARC runs a state in Colombia? Do these groups have sufficient forces that (1) they can openly leave the jungle and occupy cities, and win an armed conflict against the “rightful” government of those territories? (2) They control enough income producing territory to buy the ammunition and pay soldiers to keep (1) true? IS has (1) right now. Syria has basically been defeated. Insurgent tactics can slaughter counterattacks by the Iraqi government. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907.md?page=3)