# So.... \*IS\* ISIS a state? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907 "2015-09-29T02:06:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/101 "2015-10-01T14:50:13Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “Recognition” isn’t some abstract lawyerly thing. It is all about what _other states_ think - remember, those guys who have armies, tanks and bombers? > > What happens, in brutal reality, is this - if you are a “state”, meaning an entity actually recognized by other states, those other states hesitate to send their men with guns, bombers, etc. to trample over “your” territory, kill “your” people, and blow up “your” cities. Yes, they may do it anyway (by “declaring war” or by waging an undeclared war), but it tends to have serious consequences - other states frown on making war on a declared “state”. > > On the other hand, if you are not a “state”, unless you have powerful friends who are “states”, states feel free to send their men with guns in, to blow up your shit with bombs, to do whatever the hell they want to, to you. Why? Because the territory their men with guns are sent into isn’t really “your” territory - it is someone elses’, you just stole it from them; the people being shot at by other states aren’t an “army” of a “state”, but rebels and terrorists; and very often, the original, “legitimate” owners of “your” territory are giving them signed and sealed permission to do these very things - and again, unless the non-state folks have powerful state friends, no-one can stop them. > > That’s the difference between being a real, recognized “state” and not. It is a very important practical difference that translates directly into bombs and bullets. > > Sure, being a “state” doesn’t automatically stop you from being hammered by others with a grudge, but it is a big game-changer in terms of consequences. I think you’ll find in reality that the “recognition” depends on being made to be hesitant about sending in the troops, not the other way round. Your other statement lacks a solid base in reality too - you may notice a complete lack of hesitancy on the part of many states invading or bombing other legally recognised states, if they lack the firepower for a proper defence. Hint - Libya. The other ingredient you are missing is that other states have been _backing_ ISIS, sending in their money, training, manpower etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/102 "2015-10-01T14:53:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Are you seriously proposing that we return to a time where we recognize the right of conquest? _Seriously???_ We _DO_ recognize the right of conquest (I thought the Tibet example was a pretty good one). We just set quite high barriers: we want that conquest legitimized by an internationally-brokered peace process, which won’t happen with ISIS for at least a decade, probably more like a generation. I don’t think they’ll be around that long, but I won’t bet on it. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/103 "2015-10-01T14:56:45Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Dr. Drake: > > 1945, when World War II ended and the UN was founded. Since that point, I don’t think there’s been any occasion where one sovereign nation forcibly seized land that was controlled by another sovereign nation and administered it as their own territory (i.e., did not set up a local puppet government for show) and had the claim recognized by any significant number of other nations. The parenthesised puppet government is a handy get-out clause. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/104 "2015-10-01T14:59:38Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > We _DO_ recognize the right of conquest (I thought the Tibet example was a pretty good one). We just set quite high barriers: we want that conquest legitimized by an internationally-brokered peace process, which won’t happen with ISIS for at least a decade, probably more like a generation. I don’t think they’ll be around that long, but I won’t bet on it. Yes excellent example. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/105 "2015-10-01T15:02:50Z")
Can someone explain this please because I’m a bit confused as to which states are or are not helping ISIS to come into being. Did this plan go ahead or not ? "C. THE WEST, GULF COUNTRIES, AND TURKEY SUPPORT THE OPPOSITION; WHILE RUSSIA, CHINA AND IRAN SUPPORT THE REGIME. 8.C. IF THE SITUATION UNRAVELS THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY OF **ESTABLISHING A DECLARED OR UNDECLARED SALAFIST PRINCIPALITY IN EASTERN SYRIA** (HASAKA AND DER ZOR), **AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE SUPPORTING POWERS TO THE OPPOSITION WANT [see C above], IN ORDER TO ISOLATE THE SYRIAN REGIME**, WHICH IS CONSIDERED THE STRATEGIC DEPTH OF THE SHIA EXPANSION (IRAQ AND IRAN)" > **[2012 Defense Intelligence Agency document: West will facilitate rise of...](https://levantreport.com/2015/05/19/2012-defense-intelligence-agency-document-west-will-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/)** > > On Monday, May 18, the conservative government watchdog group Judicial Watch published a selection of formerly classified documents obtained from the U.S. Department of Defense and State Department… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/106 "2015-10-01T15:09:09Z")
Nobody supports ISIS. The Russians et al. support Assad’s government. The rest support the non-ISIS militants. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/107 "2015-10-01T15:13:17Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Can someone explain this please because I’m a bit confused as to which states are or are not helping ISIS to come into being. Did this plan go ahead or not ? > > "C. THE WEST, GULF COUNTRIES, AND TURKEY SUPPORT THE OPPOSITION; WHILE RUSSIA, CHINA AND IRAN SUPPORT THE REGIME. > > 8.C. IF THE SITUATION UNRAVELS THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY OF **ESTABLISHING A DECLARED OR UNDECLARED SALAFIST PRINCIPALITY IN EASTERN SYRIA** (HASAKA AND DER ZOR), **AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE SUPPORTING POWERS TO THE OPPOSITION WANT [see C above], IN ORDER TO ISOLATE THE SYRIAN REGIME**, WHICH IS CONSIDERED THE STRATEGIC DEPTH OF THE SHIA EXPANSION (IRAQ AND IRAN)" > > [http://levantreport.com/2015/05/19/2012-defense-intelligence-agency-document-west-will-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/](http://levantreport.com/2015/05/19/2012-defense-intelligence-agency-document-west-will-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/) You aren’t reading things correctly. “Opposition groups” and “ISIL” are not synonymous. ISIL doesn’t have any government supporting it – not Iran, not Iraq, not Syria, not Russia, not the US. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/108 "2015-10-01T15:13:28Z")
I said > [@](#): > > A lawyer without armed men to tell him what to do is just a guy impotently waving a law book of wishful thinking around. …but that’s not always true, after all al-Baghdadi is a cleric and lawyer, and seems to be in charge by virtue of providing an intellectual framework that appeals to the men with guns, and to his supporters in other states. Sometimes lawyers fear the whip hand of the military, sometimes they can pull their strings, depends on situation, but either way the law is useless without guns and to make a state the guns generally come first. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/109 "2015-10-01T15:15:56Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > I think you’ll find in reality that the “recognition” depends on being made to be hesitant about sending in the troops, not the other way round. I think you will find the opposite. Certainly, no-one is “hesitant” to bomb ISIS right now - if they hestitate, it is purely to about committing expensive resources. > [@](#): > > Your other statement lacks a solid base in reality too - you may notice a complete lack of hesitancy on the part of many states invading or bombing other legally recognised states, if they lack the firepower for a proper defence. Hint - Libya. Yes, states do attack each other - if said states lack significant friends - something I may have mentioned, a trifle, in the post you were quoting. There is, however, a lot more hesitancy to attack an actual state, than some non-state armed group. > [@](#): > > The other ingredient you are missing is that other states have been _backing_ ISIS, sending in their money, training, manpower etc. Really? Who? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/110 "2015-10-01T15:17:57Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > We _DO_ recognize the right of conquest (I thought the Tibet example was a pretty good one). We just set quite high barriers: we want that conquest legitimized by an internationally-brokered peace process, which won’t happen with ISIS for at least a decade, probably more like a generation. I don’t think they’ll be around that long, but I won’t bet on it. The Tibet situation is much more complex than “conquest”. The analogy with Da-esh doesn’t make any sense at all. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/111 "2015-10-01T15:24:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You aren’t reading things correctly. “Opposition groups” and “ISIL” are not synonymous. ISIL doesn’t have any government supporting it – not Iran, not Iraq, not Syria, not Russia, not the US, not Turkey – nobody. It doesn’t say “Opposition groups” and “ISIL” are synonymous. Oh but ISIS _does_ get support from other states. It’s in the news regularly. > **[Iraq: How Saudi Arabia helped Isis take over the north of the country](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html)** > > A speech by an ex-MI6 boss hints at a plan going back over a decade. In some areas, being Shia is akin to being a Jew in Nazi Germany [http://uk.businessinsider.com/links-between-turkey-and-isis-are-now-undeniable-2015-7?r=US&IR=T](http://uk.businessinsider.com/links-between-turkey-and-isis-are-now-undeniable-2015-7?r=US&IR=T) It gets support through Turkey, Saudi - at the very least with a very blind eye. We like to assume that all those weapons given by NATO to opposition groups and then handed over by those groups to AQ and ISIS are done so accidentally. too. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/112 "2015-10-01T15:26:54Z")
They are getting support from \*private \*donors. You are clearly still confused about what “states” are. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/113 "2015-10-01T15:28:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The Tibet situation is much more complex than “conquest”. The analogy with Da-esh doesn’t make any sense at all. If you are talking re-taking old territories, OK, but most of the middle East is old territories divided and redrawn by colonial powers. ISIS wants to re-take those. To them it’s a restoration as much as the creation of something new, rubbing out the Sykes-Picot lines. > **[Isis are barbarians – but the Caliphate is an ancient Muslim ideal](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/isis-are-barbarians-but-the-caliphate-is-an-ancient-muslim-ideal-10365201.html)** > > Healing the divisions of Islam and forming a single state under God's law is a dream that stands at the heart of all Muslim traditions ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/114 "2015-10-01T15:31:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They are getting support from \*private \*donors. You are clearly still confused about what “states” are. That’s not an honest appraisal of that article, or what turning a blind eye means, or of how a government can work through private means, or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/115 "2015-10-01T15:37:31Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > It doesn’t say “Opposition groups” and “ISIL” are synonymous. > > Oh but ISIS _does_ get support from other states. It’s in the news regularly. > > [Iraq crisis: How Saudi Arabia helped Isis take over the north of the country | The Independent | The Independent](http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html) > > [http://uk.businessinsider.com/links-between-turkey-and-isis-are-now-undeniable-2015-7?r=US&IR=T](http://uk.businessinsider.com/links-between-turkey-and-isis-are-now-undeniable-2015-7?r=US&IR=T) > > It gets support through Turkey, Saudi - at the very least with a very blind eye. We like to assume that all those weapons given by NATO to opposition groups and then handed over by those groups to AQ and ISIS are done so accidentally. too. The first article you link to is making the same error you do. Supporting Sunnis doesn’t mean supporting ISIL. It also, probably intentionally, misrepresents the actions of individual Saudis – who certainly have AQ sympathies – with the actions of the Saudi government, who hate AQ, so crappy press articles just say, “the Saudis support AQ!” And we’re talking about Turkey, who is currently dropping bombs on ISIL, right? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/116 "2015-10-01T15:38:50Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > That’s not an honest appraisal of that article, or what turning a blind eye means, or of how a government can work through private means, or anything. True or false: _the United States government supported the Irish Republican Army._ ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/117 "2015-10-01T15:48:04Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The first article you link to is making the same error you do. Supporting Sunnis doesn’t mean supporting ISIL. It also, probably intentionally, misrepresents the actions of individual Saudis – who certainly have AQ sympathies – with the actions of the Saudi government, who hate AQ, so crappy press articles just say, “the Saudis support AQ!” > > And we’re talking about Turkey, who is currently dropping bombs on ISIL, right? Looks like you skimmed it too quickly. It says explicitly - "substantial and sustained funding from private donors in Saudi Arabia and Qatar, to which the authorities may have turned a blind eye, has played a central role in the \*\*\*Isis \*\*\*surge " The next question is whether these private donors have government sanction or not, or whether any preventive measures by the Saudi government are half hearted so as to maintain ISIS support. And Patrick Cockburn is one of the best Middle East journalists in the world. As to Turkey - it’s right there in black and white again. If you can’t read it that’s OK, others can, let’s see what they have to say. > **['ISIS Sees Turkey as Its Ally': Former Islamic State Member Reveals Turkish...](https://www.newsweek.com/isis-and-turkey-cooperate-destroy-kurds-former-isis-member-reveals-turkish-282920)** > > A former member of Islamic State recounts travelling through Turkey in an ISIS convoy to attack Kurdish forces as the Turkish army turned a blind eye ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/118 "2015-10-01T16:00:10Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Looks like you skimmed it too quickly. It says explicitly - > > "substantial and sustained funding from private donors in Saudi Arabia and Qatar, to which the authorities may have turned a blind eye, has played a central role in the \*\*\*Isis \*\*\*surge " > > The next question is whether these private donors have government sanction or not, or whether any preventive measures by the Saudi government are half hearted so as to maintain ISIS support. So, answer **RNATB** ’s question about the US and the IRA. > [@](#): > > And Patrick Cockburn is one of the best Middle East journalists in the world. I honestly don’t know his reputation, so I googled him. The first article that came up was him writing two weeks ago that there is no evidence that Russia is increasing its military commitment to Syria (oops!) and that the UK drone strikes in Syria are a mark of British tyranny. Those stories don’t exactly seem like the work of the world’s leading journalists. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/119 "2015-10-01T16:10:39Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So, answer **RNATB** ’s question about the US and the IRA. > > I honestly don’t know his reputation, so I googled him. The first article that came up was him writing two weeks ago that there is no evidence that Russia is increasing its military commitment to Syria (oops!) and that the UK drone strikes in Syria are a mark of British tyranny. Those stories don’t exactly seem like the work of the world’s leading journalists. What the relevence of that question is escapes me. IRA ? ISIS ? Got me there. I’ll have to plead my right to remain silent there, officer. And you forgot to say please. Well you know his reputation now. “He has written three books on [Iraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq)’s recent history. He won the [Martha Gellhorn Prize](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Martha_Gellhorn_Prize_for_Journalism) in 2005, the [James Cameron Prize](http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void(0)) in 2006, the [Orwell Prize](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwell_Prize) for Journalism in 2009,[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Cockburn#cite_note-orbooks-2014-1) Foreign Commentator of the Year (Editorial Intelligence Comment Awards 2013, Foreign Affairs Journalist of the Year (British Journalism Awards 2014), Foreign Reporter of the Year (The Press Awards For 2014).” If you don’t know who Patrick Cockburn is already then you can’t have been reading much about the Middle East. What was the evidence, two weeks ago, that Russia was increasing it’s military commitment ? Did you catch it ? Of course that’s irrelevant anyway to whether ISIS is being supported by states, of which the evidence is widespread. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/120 "2015-10-01T16:19:00Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > What the relevence of that question is escapes me. IRA ? ISIS ? Got me there. I’ll have to plead my right to remain silent there, officer. And you forgot to say please. Because you seem to want to blur the difference between a person supporting terrorists and that person’s country supporting terrorists. > [@](#): > > Well you know his reputation now. Apparently so. It seems he has much the same approach to journalism as his brother, who is well regarded by folks with some political views, but who I don’t think does a good job. You should know that after going to university in the UK, my tolerance for British journalists who assume that everyone wants to know their own opinion, rather than read good reporting, has been exhausted. > [@](#): > > If you don’t know who Patrick Cockburn is already then you can’t have been reading much about the Middle East. I don’t regularly read the Independent, no. Is reading that small newspaper now the sine qua non of being literate in world affairs? > [@](#): > > What was the evidence, two weeks ago, that Russia was increasing it’s military commitment ? Did you catch it ? From a couple days before his opinion piece: > **[U.S. Moves to Block Russian Military Buildup in Syria (Published 2015)](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/09/world/europe/us-moves-to-block-russian-military-buildup-in-syria.html)** > > Bulgaria also agreed to an Obama administration request to shut its airspace to Russian transport planes, while Greece had not publicly responded to a similar request. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907.md?page=7)