# So.... \*IS\* ISIS a state? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907 "2015-09-29T02:06:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/161 "2015-10-02T20:07:34Z")
To answer a question from above, no, a journalist’s opinion is not material in whether ISIS is a State. There is a significant difference between one State recognizing another and one journalist recognizing a State. Part of the reason in IR theory external legitimacy is one of the key defining factors of whether something is a state or not is because it works under the concept that “if entities everyone agrees are states, members of the ‘club of Statehood’, start to recognize this thing as a State, then that has weight because they’re basically inviting this guy to the club and since being one of ‘them’ is the only criteria for membership these guys are the ones best positioned to know when that criteria has been met.” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/162 "2015-10-02T20:10:57Z")
I’ll also reject coning money as any meaningful indicator that something is a state. That actually isn’t typically one of the “pillars of statehood.” Because lots of things we all recognize as States have actually devolved currency controls to sub-state entities to varying degrees, at one time or another. Further, lots of entities that aren’t states essentially create their own currencies all the time (casinos, amusement parks being one example.) Towns (usually technically illegal) in the United States and lone crackpots have printed money and minted coins before too, and it’s never regarded seriously. Further in say, the Eurozone states have actually surrendered individual currency control to a body of which a group of states are members. FWIW the four simple definitions of statehood, that are pretty reasonable and are taught to college students are: 1. Has land 2. Has people that are largely stable in said land. 3. Has a government the people who live in this land recognize. 4. Is recognized by other states. ISIS has maybe 1.5 of those. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/163 "2015-10-02T20:13:22Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > To answer a question from above, no, a journalist’s opinion is not material in whether ISIS is a State. I agree, but does that fellow, Patrick Cockburn, even make that claim that it IS a state? It seemed like his name was brought to validate the claim that Da-esh got some financial support from Saudi Arabia. Which has fuck-all to do with whether or not it’s a state. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/164 "2015-10-03T07:13:35Z")
You’re not a state as long as you are still at war with the other people who have claim to your region. For example, the U.S. did not actually become a state until the end of the Revolutionary War. Then its statehood was retroactively applied. Had it failed, like the Confederacy did, it would have never become a state. North Korea exists because the armistice. It wasn’t a state in the Korean War. And ISIS isn’t a state, because it is still at war. You don’t have to be recognized by everyone, but the people you are at war with need to at least acknowledge that your claim is valid–not legitimate, but valid. And they haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/165 "2015-10-03T17:36:14Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’ll also reject coning money as any meaningful indicator that something is a state. That actually isn’t typically one of the “pillars of statehood.” Because lots of things we all recognize as States have actually devolved currency controls to sub-state entities to varying degrees, at one time or another. Further, lots of entities that aren’t states essentially create their own currencies all the time (casinos, amusement parks being one example.) Towns (usually technically illegal) in the United States and lone crackpots have printed money and minted coins before too, and it’s never regarded seriously. Further in say, the Eurozone states have actually surrendered individual currency control to a body of which a group of states are members. > > FWIW the four simple definitions of statehood, that are pretty reasonable and are taught to college students are: > > 1. Has land > 2. Has people that are largely stable in said land. > 3. Has a government the people who live in this land recognize. > 4. Is recognized by other states. > > ISIS has maybe 1.5 of those. I’m not bothered about the textbook version, myself. They’ve got the first three as far as I know. But if not a state then what about a territory, society, country, Caliphate, kingdom, homeland, principality ? ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/166 "2015-10-03T17:43:36Z")
But as to funding, it was demanded of me that I forthwith present proper governmental evidence. Would the Vice President be government enough ? > **[Biden 'clarifies' comments implying UAE support for extremists](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/05/uae-clarification-joe-biden-remarks-extremists)** > > VP told Harvard audience ‘our biggest problem is our allies’, in remarks for which Turkey demanded and received an apology on Saturday > [@](#): > > “our biggest problem is our allies” who are engaged in a proxy Sunni-Shiite war against Syrian President Bashar Assad. He specifically named Turkey, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. “What did they do? They poured hundreds of millions of dollars and thousands of tons of weapons into anyone who would fight against Assad – except that the people who were being supplied were [Jabhat] al-Nusra and al-Qaida and the extremist elements of jihadis coming from other parts of the world,” Where did he get those ideas, does he read what the world’s biggest intel apparatus tells him, or does he just read Patrick Cockburn for a few minutes over his cornflakes every morning ? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/167 "2015-10-03T18:04:05Z")
Because he isn’t talking about ISIL. ISIL, Al Nusra, Ahrar al Sham, Khorasan, and many other groups are all Sunni extremists, but they are not interchangeable. They are no more interchangeable than the US and Germany and Turkey and Romania - all NATO members, but not the same. You understand that Sunni extremists are not all the same, right? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/168 "2015-10-03T19:36:46Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > I’m not bothered about the textbook version, myself. > They’ve got the first three as far as I know. > But if not a state then what about a territory, society, country, Caliphate, kingdom, homeland, principality ? ISIS has land, but even that isn’t stable. Their land has no stable borders. They have people, but many of their population flees the first chance they get and the people they control fluctuate with their control of the land. They lack any real government over most of their territory and they lack any external legitimacy. You need all four to be considered a state, ISIS has at best 1.5. The rest of those terms you listed aren’t worth addressing. If you want to go with your own personal definition of State, more power to you. I have the weight of scholarly opinion on my side and little concern over how a random person on a message board chooses to define words. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/169 "2015-10-03T19:56:53Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > ISIS has land, but even that isn’t stable. Their land has no stable borders. They have people, but many of their population flees the first chance they get Sorta like what Florida will be after a few decades of rising seas. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/170 "2015-10-04T19:42:14Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > That is, does it have control of enough territory to have a functioning economy? > > We hear about the fight and the refugees, and I have heard the occasional report about the ‘ISIS capital’ of (I believe) Aleppo. But, behind the fighting, is there enough space for ISIS to set up ‘civilian’ institutions, run a postal service, plant and harvest crops, build roads, etc, etc? Obviously they might not be able to because of the fighting, but could they if the fighting magically ceased and everyone remained in place? See if this provides context > **[You Can't Understand ISIS If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157)** > > Abd al-Wahhab argued that all Muslims must individually pledge their allegiance to a single Muslim leader (a Caliph, if there were one). Those who would not conform to this view should be killed, their wives and daughters violated, and their... > **[Middle East Time Bomb: The Real Aim of ISIS Is to Replace the Saud Family as...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/isis-aim-saudi-arabia_b_5748744)** > > The real time bomb being set by ISIS is the implosion of Saudi Arabia as a foundation stone of the modern Middle East. The real target of ISIS must be the Hijaz -- the seizure of Mecca and Medina -- and the legitimacy that this will confer on ISIS as... ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/171 "2015-10-04T19:47:28Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Because he isn’t talking about ISIL. ISIL, Al Nusra, Ahrar al Sham, Khorasan, and many other groups are all Sunni extremists, but they are not interchangeable. They are no more interchangeable than the US and Germany and Turkey and Romania - all NATO members, but not the same. > > You understand that Sunni extremists are not all the same, right? No I don’t. I don’t understand that Al Nusra have been joining ISIS, giving them weapons etc., or that Biden could have easily mentioned ISIS as well because actually the Saud’s have funded them. You’re very determined to see no evil here. Hey, you’re not one of those bloggers employed in information warfare are you ? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/172 "2015-10-04T20:10:26Z")
No, I’m just a guy who knows that all Muslims aren’t the same. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/173 "2015-10-04T20:18:46Z")
Wikipedia says > [@](#): > > **Definitional issues** > > There is no academic [consensus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus) on the most appropriate definition of the state.[[5]](javascript:void(0)) The term “state” refers to a set of different, but interrelated and often overlapping, theories about a certain range of political [phenomena](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomena).[[6]](javascript:void(0)) The act of defining the term can be seen as part of an ideological conflict, because different definitions lead to different theories of state function, and as a result validate different political strategies.[[7]"](javascript:void(0)) “The act of defining the term can be seen as part of an ideological conflict, because different definitions lead to different theories of state function, and as a result validate different political strategies” People see what they want to see. [URL=“javascript:void(0)”] ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/174 "2015-10-04T20:23:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > No, I’m just a guy who knows that all Muslims aren’t the same. > **[Institute for the Study of War](https://www.understandingwar.org/report/jabhat-al-nusra-syria)** > > The Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) is not the only Salafi-Jihadist threat emanating from Syria. Its prominence in U.S. policy has overshadowed a threat of similar magnitude from Jabhat al-Nusra (JN), the official al-Qaeda (AQ) affiliate in > [@](#): > > The Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) is not the only Salafi-Jihadist threat emanating from Syria. Its prominence in U.S. policy has overshadowed a threat of similar magnitude from Jabhat al-Nusra (JN), the official al-Qaeda (AQ) affiliate in Syria. JN rivals ISIS as a sophisticated, intelligent, strategic actor in the region and continues to enjoy a dangerous freedom to operate in Syria. The two groups share common goals, including a revived Islamic Caliphate. JN, however, is pursuing its aims through a distinct, more patient methodology that is highly threatening despite its low signature. Whereas ISIS has announced its state and tried to legitimize it by conquest, JN is following AQ leader Ayman al-Zawahiri’s method of fomenting a religious and social revolution by embedding itself within an indigenous insurgency. The Syrian war has provided JN a nearly ideal environment within which to implement this strategy on behalf of al-Qaeda, and JN has enjoyed worrying success to date. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/175 "2015-10-04T20:26:32Z")
Sometimes they fight, sometimes they cooperate > **[ISIS-Nusra Front Alliance Could Spread In Syria](https://www.ibtimes.com/jabhat-al-nusra-isis-alliance-could-spread-beyond-damascus-1877819)** > > The U.S. would face an even worse policy dilemma in Syria in the event the Islamic State group and the local al Qaeda offshoot fought together. They both have the goal of establishing a caliphate, and they are or have been supported by Saudi, as Biden said, although he didn’t explicitly say ISIS that time. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/176 "2015-10-04T20:55:57Z")
So you say sometimes al Nusra fights ISIL, and sometime they don’t? Which was my point, so, apology accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Staale\_Nordlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Staale\_Nordlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staale_Nordlie)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/177 "2015-10-04T22:37:49Z")
There are a lot of misconceptions in this thread. First of all, I’m assuming it’s a thread about international law. YMMV. The Montevideo Convention from 1933 is a decent starting point. It is generally considered a codification of existing customary international law. The US is a signatory. > [@](#): > > ARTICLE 1 > > The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory; c ) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. > [http://www.cfr.org/sovereignty/montevideo-convention-rights-duties-states/p15897](http://www.cfr.org/sovereignty/montevideo-convention-rights-duties-states/p15897) Does ISIS have a population? Yes. Does ISIS have a territory? Yes. It doesn’t have to be undisputed. For example, Israel is clearly a state. Does ISIS have a government. Yes. It has an army, taxes, laws and various government services. The fourth criteria is perhaps better described as “independence”, as opposed to being under the control of another state, and overlaps somewhat with “government”. Is ISIS independent? Again, I would say yes. It is not a puppet of some other existing state. Recognition by other states is _not_ a criteria for statehood. From the Montevideo Convention again: > [@](#): > > ARTICLE 3 > > The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence, to provide for its conservation and prosperity, and consequently to organize itself as it sees fit, to legislate upon its interests, administer its services, and to define the jurisdiction and competence of its courts. > > The exercise of these rights has no other limitation than the exercise of the rights of other states according to international law. > [http://www.cfr.org/sovereignty/montevideo-convention-rights-duties-states/p15897](http://www.cfr.org/sovereignty/montevideo-convention-rights-duties-states/p15897) So, “capacity to enter into relations with the other states” does not depend on other states _wanting_ “relations”. Similarly, from the EU appointed Badinter Arbitration Committee: > [@](#): > > … the existence or disappearance of the state is a question of fact; that the effects of recognition by other states are purely declaratory … > > [http://ejil.org/pdfs/3/1/1175.pdf](http://ejil.org/pdfs/3/1/1175.pdf) (page 5) People have suggested other criteria, such as long-term stability, for statehood. They’re not commonly accepted as far as I can see. \*\*So, ISIS is probably a “state” according to international law. \*\* (This thesis has more details about the legal issues if anyone’s interested: [http://arno.uvt.nl/show.cgi?fid=121942](http://arno.uvt.nl/show.cgi?fid=121942) [from page 22] .) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/178 "2015-10-04T23:33:27Z")
Rather than debating your analysis point by point, let’s find the experts in IR who believe ISIL is a state. The most we’ve been able to come up with is “state-like,” which really means “not a state.” ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/179 "2015-10-05T02:20:42Z")
What “capacity to engage in international relations” does ISIS have? Where do they have embassies? Where have they placed ambassadors? What treaties have they signed on to? How do I get a visa to visit? There are partially recognized states, such as Somaliland and Taiwan, which have “representative centers” or “economic and cultural offices” that are functionally embassies. These are the kinds of unrecognized states that have actual diplomatic capacity. They look after citizens, engage in diplomatic activities, may provide visas and otherwise do what an embassy does. “Capacity to engage in international relations” is not just saying they have at least one person in the country that could theoretically have a conversation with a person from another country. It means they actually have what is needed (relationships with other states, a diplomatic corps, ability to do things like manage visas) to function as a a state internationally. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907/180 "2015-10-05T03:06:36Z")
> [@Staale\_Nordlie](#): > > Does ISIS have a population? Yes. > > Does ISIS have a territory? Yes. You miss out the words “permanent” and “defined” from those definitions. Does ISIS have a permanent population? No, huge sections of the population flee as refugees as soon as ISIS arrives. Meanwhile foreign fighters are constantly flooding in. Does ISIS have defined territory? No, they control a rapidly changing patchwork of strongholds. Eg see this animation: [Operation Inherent Resolve: How ISIS Territory Has Changed Since the U.S. Bombing Campaign - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/09/isis-territory-map-us-campaign/404776/) IMO, ISIS is a “proto-state”. If they still exist in 10 years time and still hold significant territory with defined borders and have a permanent population they would then be a state. Note the Taliban was only in control of Afghanistan for five years and were not recognised or accepted as a state by most observers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-isis-a-state/732907.md?page=10)