# So...is it fascism, or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726 "2003-12-23T21:49:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![KarmaComa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e36b37/32.png) [@KarmaComa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarmaComa)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/41 "2003-12-30T06:31:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\ ***syncro** : I agree. I think I could come up with a much more credible list of 10 or so points “proving” that the US is teetering on the edge of Socialism. The more the left cries 'Fascism", the more they look like wild-eyed idiots and end up marginalizing themselves. \*\* Well I’d love to see them, if you can be troubled to post a thread! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![itsdamunn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/0ea827/32.png) [@itsdamunn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/itsdamunn)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/42 "2003-12-30T08:28:22Z")
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. YES. hollywood movies with flag flying everywhere. thinking you are the best in everything. 1. Disdain for the importance of human rights. YES. guantanamo. the poor in US suffering in the ghettos. racism. violence against other countries, other people. nicaragua. panama. vietnam. mexico. afghanistan. breeding saddam osama and many other dictators as children of CIA etc… 1. Identification of enemies. YES. with us or not with us paranoia. 1. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. YES. taxpayers money. huge amounts. also selling weapons everywhere else in the world to make money and create instability. just like like what happens within the country, which isn’t safe. bowling for columbine. 1. Rampant sexism. PERHAPS, like everywhere else. 1. A controlled mass media. YES. lots of self-censorship. FOX is a bit of a laugh. CNN has no credibility. private jessica lynch heroine orchestrated nonsense. taking too much credit for catching saddam, as shown in media. when the kurds did most of the work. highly censored and slanted school textbooks. an ignorant population is the result, knowing very little about non-USA history/geography/sociology/psycholgy… 1. Obsession with national security. YES. with us not with us nonsense 1. Religion and ruling elite tied together. YES. “god bless america” 10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. YES. the poor are very very poor in the ghettos. 1. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. YES. hollywood filth. 1. Obsession with crime and punishment. YES. cop chases, widespread paranoia. 1. Rampant cronyism and corruption. YES. FOX is brotherly. so is FLORIDA state. very brotherly. 1. Fraudulent elections. YES. rigged 2000 elections. racist electoral manipulation. extremely exclusive and expensive system. ordinary man loses out. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/43 "2003-12-30T12:36:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\ ***syncro** : I agree. I think I could come up with a much more credible list of 10 or so points “proving” that the US is teetering on the edge of Socialism. The more the left cries 'Fascism", the more they look like wild-eyed idiots and end up marginalizing themselves. \*\* Cite? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/44 "2003-12-30T12:51:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*Cite? \*\* [This would be a good place to start.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=231068) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/45 "2003-12-30T12:59:35Z")
> [@](#): > > This would be a good place to start. Only works if you take this thread’s 14 points as proof of fascism, rather than as indicators of a trend toward fascism. You don’t seem to get the point – fascism is a beast you want to detect and kill early on. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/46 "2003-12-30T13:21:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*Only works if you take this thread’s 14 points as proof of fascism, rather than as indicators of a trend toward fascism. You don’t seem to get the point – fascism is a beast you want to detect and kill early on. \*\* You’re right. I’m certain we’ll see all the major Democractic presidential candidates coming out with positions similar to the OP. The really smart one will change his (or her) campaign slogan to “Vote for me and stop the Bush march towards Fascism”. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/47 "2003-12-30T13:46:28Z")
It’s not a good strategy because the general populace has been intellectually sedated by a tame news media. Much education is needed here before people get the point that fascism is possible in the U.S. if things get out of hand. Careful perusal of my responses to the 14 points will indicate that I think things haven’t started to get out of hand as yet. We’re moving in the wrong direction generally, but we’re not in any real danger of fascism at present. I think corporate oligarchy achieved through control of the elections process via campaign funding is a more serious danger. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/48 "2003-12-30T14:00:44Z")
**EC** : I think the OP is measuring noise in the signal, rather than any actual information. You are correct, of course, that real Fascism should be nipped in the bud. But you have to know the real thing when you see it. We have a strong Constitution in this country that keeps things like fascism at bay. Until I see parts of the Constitution nullified, I’m not going to give one second’s worry to fascism appearing in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/49 "2003-12-30T14:16:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Brad DeLong (who has his own weblog now) put together a better list, IMO. Four of his five points (his fifth point has more to do with nazism) were: > > - A strong rejection of the classical “liberal” belief that > individuals have rights that any legitimate state is bound > to respect. > > - In its place, an assertion that individuals have duties to the > state, seen as the decision-making organ of the collectivity. > > - A strong belief that parliamentary democracy is not the way to > choose the leaders of the state: a combination of charismatic > expression and bureaucratic oligarchism is. > > - A strong fear of Marxist communism, and an eagerness to use any and all weapons–suspension of parliamentary democracy, mass propaganda, rallies, street violence, and so forth–to combat it. If you can draw a distinction between Marxism and Maoism, this sounds more like Red China in the 70s than America today. > [@](#): > > Chip Berlet has another definition of fascism: > > "racial or cultural nationalism combined with economic corporatism and authoritarian autocracy; masked during its rise to state power by pseudo-radical populist appeals to overthrow a conspiratorial elitist regime; China, 1948. > [@](#): > > spurred by a strong charismatic leader whose reactionary ideas are said to organically express the will of the masses who are urged to engage in a heroic collective effort to attain a metaphysical goal against the machinations of a scapegoated demonized adversary." Mao. The scapegoats would be the “Four Olds” during the Cultural Revolution. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/50 "2003-12-30T16:12:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alien \* > \*_Brad DeLong (who has his own weblog now) put together a better list, IMO…_ A strong rejection of the classical “liberal” belief that > individuals have rights that any legitimate state is bound > to respect. > > - In its place, an assertion that individuals have duties to the > state, seen as the decision-making organ of the collectivity.\*\* “Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.” (JFK) \*\* > [@](#): > > Chip Berlet has another definition of fascism: > > “racial or cultural nationalism combined with economic corporatism and authoritarian autocracy; masked during its rise to state power by pseudo-radical populist appeals to overthrow a conspiratorial elitist regime; spurred by a strong charismatic leader whose reactionary ideas are said to organically express the will of the masses who are urged to engage in a heroic collective effort to attain a metaphysical goal against the machinations of a scapegoated demonized adversary.”\*\* Buy a comma, Mr. Berlet.\*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*\* Exhortations for the homogeneous masses of common folk (Volkish in German, Populist in the U.S.) to join voluntarily in a heroic mission\_often metaphysical and romanticized in character.\*\* Not sure the Populists would have enjoyed being compared to Fascists.\*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*\* Abandonment of any consistent ideology in a drive for state power.\*\* Increasingly true of today’s Republican Party in the U.S. (though dubiously a Fascist trait). Who would’ve thought the GOP would embrace both a big expansion of the “welfare state” and huge deficits? _“If americans don’t defend their liberties who will?”_ “Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty” That’s _vigilance_, not paranoia. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/51 "2003-12-30T16:45:01Z")
Just a few fragmentary impressions on these Fourteen Points: > [@](#): > > Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism “Remember the Maine!” - the ‘liberation’ of Cuba, Guam, and the Philippines under benevolent American rule. Oh yes, Hawai’i too. > [@](#): > > Disdain for the importance of human rights Jim Crow laws. Coolie labor on the railroads and the Exclusion Act. > [@](#): > > Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause Blacks. Catholics. Immigrants from Ireland, Eastern Europe, Italy, and Asia. > [@](#): > > The supremacy of the military/avid militarism Again, the period from the Spanish-American War through the First World War. > [@](#): > > Rampant sexism The non-existent legal status of women as citizens. When did they get the right to vote again? > [@](#): > > A controlled mass media Three words: William Randolph Hearst. > [@](#): > > Obsession with national security Isolationism after 1914. The Palmer Raids. Jailing Eugene Debs for speaking out against the war. > [@](#): > > Religion and ruling elite tied together I wish I could remember the exact title of Twain’s essay, but it’s a work in which an angel of God comes to a church in the middle of praying for the troops’ safety and explaining to them what they’re really praying for - which is the same thing the papers are screaming. > [@](#): > > Power of corporations protected It took government action via the anti-trust laws after 1900 to even try to address this. > [@](#): > > Power of labor suppressed or eliminated Lawrence textile strikes, anyone? How about the miners’ strikes in Ludlow, Colorado? Or the Great Railroad Strike of 1877? > [@](#): > > Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts Actually, I can’t come up with any good examples under this heading. > [@](#): > > Obsession with crime and punishment The Comstock Laws. > [@](#): > > Rampant cronyism and corruption Graft. Boss Tweed. Office seekers. The Teapot Dome scandal. > [@](#): > > Fraudulent elections Rutherford Birchall Hayes ring a bell? So, we can draw one of two conclusions from this: 1. The US has been a fascist country since the turn of the twentieth century, if not before; or 2. Lawrence Britt’s article is a crock of shit to which no serious leftist ought to give a second thought because it relies on a serious ignorance of history and of the nature of class society under capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/52 "2003-12-30T17:34:48Z")
“Well the rest of the world is spending way less than before… only the US is spending that much. When you spend more than the next 12 countries and its 5-6% GDP… you certainly are into military supremacy.” I’m not sure where this data comes from…but using the 2000 GNPs from : [http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/gnp.html](http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/gnp.html) the U.S. make 64% of what the next 12 contries combined and I think that Japanese, Canadian and Mexican defense spending would be a bit higher if it wasn’t for the US and their comfort in us not attacking their nation. And how about a look at military spending by historically Facist states? All of this is way to vague for my scientific mind. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/53 "2003-12-30T18:21:25Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > * * * > > ## Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts > > Actually, I can’t come up with any good examples under this heading.\*\* Mapplethorpe. City of Cincinnati. Must be the Germanic influence. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/54 "2003-12-30T19:14:41Z")
I was thinking more along the lines of examples from the middle of the nineteenth century to the beginning of the twentieth. I have a bad habit of not actually stating my point in posts; my point here is that all the features of fascism Britt points out can be shown _not_ to be features of fascism. If all those elements were present in the United States long before the rise of fascism in Europe, is the US therefore the original fascist country, or should we perhaps consider a more serious and thoroughgoing examination of what fascism actually is? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/55 "2003-12-30T19:17:40Z")
That should read, “…not features of fascism **alone** ”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/56 "2003-12-30T19:20:41Z")
Okay, so let me get it straight here. The Nazis rounded up 10,000,000 people because of their race, religion, or sexual orientation and exterminated them, usually after putting them through months of forced labor and massive deprivations of food and medicine. America currently has nearly three dozen soldiers from an enemy army locked up, where they are receiving three square meals a day and plentiful medical attention, but because we have not yet tried them or deported them _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ The Nazis glorified the Germanic race as the only race deemed human, which was destined not merely to survive, but to go out and rule all other races. To some degree, this was mimiced by the Italians in their celebration of the Roman Empire. Americans take pride in actually living in this country, and therefore _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ The Nazis believed that womens’ only purpose was to further the propagation of the species, and to that end even went so far as to enslave women of correct ‘stock’ for forced breeding with SS officers. Yet because America did not pass the ERA, _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ The Nazis avowed that the only purpose of their rule was to return Germany to its previous condition by conquest of its neighbors and through inflicting military defeat upon France; the Fascists in Italy attempted to create a new Roman Empire by attacking Ethopia and Albania. But because the U.S. started a war with Iraq that may or may not have met the standards of the U.N.- and is going to pass control of that land back to the people within it, which is more than they had before, _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ The Nazi government took control of the newspapers, outlawing and destroying the presses that opposed them, and giving direct propaganda to the presses left to inform the public. But because one of the five major television news medias mya exhibit a slight bias towards supporting the current administration, _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ The Nazis instilled fierce persecution of the Catholic churches in order to foster a national religion that saw the German state as the most important part of religion, and to unify the people in Germanic religion as much as in Germanic blood. But because the President of the United States is a devout Christian, _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ The Nazis had labor leaders eliminated either through assassination or by sending them off to camps; strikes were ruthlessly crushed by the army. But because the labor force of the United States has moved more towards a white-collar existence and therefore union membership has declined, _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ The Nazis burned books that did not suit them; they placed party members in control of institutes of learning and eliminated intellectuals who did not agree with them. But because Michael Moore’s last book sales were disappointing, _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ I have not seen a finer collection of molehills in my life. I am not sure whether to be amused or scared of those who believe they have stumbled across the Rockies. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/57 "2003-12-30T20:22:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Olentzero \* > **I was thinking more along the lines of examples from the middle of the nineteenth century to the beginning of the twentieth (for examples of suppression of the arts).** OK Mr. Picky, then how about [Anthony Comstock](http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/censorship_books/7468)? And yes, I got your point. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/58 "2003-12-30T20:47:18Z")
I filed that under “Obsession with Crime and Punishment”, Mr. Redundant. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![kwildcat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e5b9ba/32.png) [@kwildcat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwildcat)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/59 "2003-12-30T21:40:27Z")
Do they no longer teach history in public schools these days? I’ve seen a slew of posts saying basically that while there may be some odds-and-ends parallels or isolated examples where the U.S. has behaved in a pseudo-fascist way, we’re not even in the same zip-code as the Nazis or the Brown Shirts. **The whole point of studying history and comparing it to current events is to see to it that it _never happens again_!** The fact that no, the U.S. most certainly is NOT a fascist nation today, December 30, 2003, does not mean that we are immune to the perils of a wide variety of “-isms”. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Corrado \* > Okay, so let me get it straight here. > > The Nazis rounded up 10,000,000 people because of their race, religion, or sexual orientation and exterminated them, usually after putting them through months of forced labor and massive deprivations of food and medicine. > > America currently has nearly three dozen soldiers from an enemy army locked up, where they are receiving three square meals a day and plentiful medical attention, but because we have not yet tried them or deported them _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ Is the difference between a crime and not-a-crime simply one of degree? Since we have yet to cross the 10-million-dead threshhold you’ve established, our actions are not actually criminal. What marvelously low standards of behavior for the self-professed “Greatest Democracy on Earth”. -American prisons are full of people whose only crime is being black -Fundamentalist religious organizations are on the verge of being granted federal dollars because their ideologies happen to jive with the ideology of an openly evangelical President -Legislation is already on the books across the country that criminalizes homosexuality, and conservatives are trying to stack the benches to see to it that challenges to such laws are struck down. OK, that covers race, religion, and sexual orientation. What next? > [@](#): > > The Nazis glorified the Germanic race as the only race deemed human, which was destined not merely to survive, but to go out and rule all other races. To some degree, this was mimiced by the Italians in their celebration of the Roman Empire. > > Americans take pride in actually living in this country, and therefore _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ You’re being ironic, right? Explain to me how Dubya’s recent foreign policy speech about bringing American-style democracy to all the poor benighted corners of the globe differs in any substantive way from expressions of Aryan supremacy. Oh, wait - is it because democracy and the American Way _really is_ superior to everything else? Suuuure. > [@](#): > > The Nazis believed that womens’ only purpose was to further the propagation of the species, and to that end even went so far as to enslave women of correct ‘stock’ for forced breeding with SS officers. > > Yet because America did not pass the ERA, _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ At last, a substantive difference between Nazi Germany and present-day United States. While still no picnic for women banging on the glass ceiling or marginalized by the right-to-life lobby, the status of women in America is exemplary in many ways. Whew - I was starting to get worried for a minute. > [@](#): > > The Nazis avowed that the only purpose of their rule was to return Germany to its previous condition by conquest of its neighbors and through inflicting military defeat upon France; the Fascists in Italy attempted to create a new Roman Empire by attacking Ethopia and Albania. > > But because the U.S. started a war with Iraq that may or may not have met the standards of the U.N.- and is going to pass control of that land back to the people within it, which is more than they had before, _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ At the risk of being repetitive, you have only to look as far as the latest justification for the U.S.'s extranational military escapades - that we are on a Blues Brothers “Mission from God” to bring democracy and 7-Elevens to all the world. It’s depressing to realize that the immorality of Manifest Destiny has been forgotten. > [@](#): > > The Nazi government took control of the newspapers, outlawing and destroying the presses that opposed them, and giving direct propaganda to the presses left to inform the public. > > But because one of the five major television news medias mya exhibit a slight bias towards supporting the current administration, _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ Your cart and your horse are facing the wrong directions. In Nazi Germany, the media was a propaganda arm of the government. In America, the government is the policy arm of the media. The details differ, the substance is the same - no independent oversight, no resource for the elusive “truth”. If you doubt my conclusion, try reading the donor list of the RNC. > [@](#): > > The Nazis instilled fierce persecution of the Catholic churches in order to foster a national religion that saw the German state as the most important part of religion, and to unify the people in Germanic religion as much as in Germanic blood. > > But because the President of the United States is a devout Christian, _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ Jimmy Carter was a devout Christian, too, but he didn’t use it as a basis for national policy. “Faith-Based Initiative” anyone? > [@](#): > > The Nazis had labor leaders eliminated either through assassination or by sending them off to camps; strikes were ruthlessly crushed by the army. > > But because the labor force of the United States has moved more towards a white-collar existence and therefore union membership has declined, _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ Are you objecting to the methods of the Nazis or the results? You’re right - no Teamsters being put in gulags here. Why use violence today when you can get the same outcome with legislation? Just remove any disincentives (like equal-protection policies) to corporations sending blue-collar jobs overseas. I hate to point out, recent moves by IBM and Dell spell the same fate for your beloved white-collar workers, too. > [@](#): > > The Nazis burned books that did not suit them; they placed party members in control of institutes of learning and eliminated intellectuals who did not agree with them. > > But because Michael Moore’s last book sales were disappointing, _we must watch out, for we are becoming a fascist nation!_ Hmmm, let’s see - denial of federal funding to inner city or predominantly minority public school systems (surely you’ve heard of the “No Child Left Behind” Act?). Placement of anti-environmental political hacks as Cabinet-level administrators over government bureaus charged with protecting the environment (see Gale Norton et al). Post-hoc censorship and editorializing of hard scientific facts to damage the credibility of research (EPA reports on global warming, arsenic, CO2 as a pollutant, “new source” review, etc. etc. ad nauseum). Notable corporate donors and nepotism appointments to federal oversight commissions (FCC, SEC - do you really think a former banking executive is going to come down hard on Wall Street fraud? Or an oil company executive from Dubya’s beloved Texas can come up with a sound national energy policy?) Again, you can try to dispute the parallel by claiming we don’t “eliminate” dissenters in the U.S. like the Nazis did. And again, I say methodology is irrelevant. The motivation is to achieve the same outcome. > [@](#): > > I have not seen a finer collection of molehills in my life. I am not sure whether to be amused or scared of those who believe they have stumbled across the Rockies. \*\* The only thing you should be scared of is your own myopia. I can imagine a similar group of proto-Dopers in a gersthaus in Stuttgart nattering about how frustrated they were by their unemployment, by the contempt they endured from the rest of Europe, and how that guy Hitler sounded so positive about the future of Germany despite the Fatherland’s present deplorable state. Do you think if they had been able to see 10 years down the road they would have voted differently? Back to the OP, I think Britt has a lamentable grasp of the real historical facts of the regimes he selectively cites. His 14 points are correspondingly flawed. But this does not diminish the importance of constant comparison between ourselves and the devils of the past, lest we repeat their tragic errors in judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726/60 "2003-12-30T21:58:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Corrado \* > \*\*Okay, so let me get it straight here. > > The Nazis rounded up 10,000,000 people because of their race, religion, or sexual orientation and exterminated them, usually after putting them through months of forced labor and massive deprivations of food and medicine.\*\* These are all excellent points **John** , except that this thread is about _fascism_, not nazism. There are major differences between those two, though they are related. I prefer to look at “ismers” as political systems. Being dragged away and shot is too common in our world, whether left or right, for it to be used as the prime characterization of an idology, IMO. Actually, I would argue that fascism can exist without the existance of summarily executions, even though history has proven me wrong so far. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-it-fascism-or-not/220726.md?page=4)