# So is Lynndie England gonna get a pardon? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2008, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027 "2008-04-12T13:28:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/21 "2008-04-12T17:33:41Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Do you have a cite that waterboarding _is_ (not might be) torture under US law? [/QUOTE] “Under the law?” Is that the deciding factor now? So, if the US passes a law that says, “Burning a prisoner with red-hot pokers is not torture,” then burning someone with red-hot pokers is therefore no longer torture? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/22 "2008-04-12T17:38:33Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] “Under the law?” Is that the deciding factor now? So, if the US passes a law that says, “Burning a prisoner with red-hot pokers is not torture,” then burning someone with red-hot pokers is therefore no longer torture? [/QUOTE] If the law is approved by the courts, then it would not be legally torture. Just because something is tortuous (even torture under a broad view) does not mean that it legally torture. Look at the conditions of in some of prisons in the US. They have the appearance of being pretty cruel and unusual. But they are not legally cruel and unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/23 "2008-04-12T17:40:38Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] Perhaps if you actually read my post #10 through to the end you will see that the DOJ memo was **quoting a court decision that found waterboarding constituted torture**. [/QUOTE] No, it found that: > [@](#): > > a course of conduct that included, among other things, severe beatings of plaintiff, repeated threats of death and electric shock, sleep deprivation, extended shackling to a cot (at times with a towel over his nose and mouth and water poured down his nostrils), seven months of confinement in a “suffocatingly hot” and cramped cell, and eight years of solitary or near-solitary confinement, constituted torture That decision does not say that waterboarding alone is torture. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/24 "2008-04-12T17:55:45Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Guys, I have a court ruling that waterboarding is torture. Does that not end the discussion? Is this not a legal finding? [/QUOTE] Since when does a ruling by a state court settle an issue of federal law? And do you have a link to the full decision? The part you quoted does not say that the “water cure” is torture. From what I can find of the case, the issue was whether a “water cure” confession can be introduced at a criminal trial. The court found that it was coercive and thus could not be introduced at trial. The case would be closer to being on point, if the government was trying to introduce confessions procured by waterboarding in a criminal trial. The only part of the decision I see that calls the “water cure” torture in this: > [@](#): > > that they had the appellant down upon the floor, tied, and were administering the water cure, a specie of torture well known to the bench and bar of the country. But the issue was not whether the “water cure” was torture so that part of the decision is mere dicta. It is also unclear that if the court was making a determination as to whether the “water cure” was legally torture or just using the word “torture” in a looser sense. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/25 "2008-04-12T17:59:27Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] If the law is approved by the courts, then it would not be legally torture. Just because something is tortuous (even torture under a broad view) does not mean that it legally torture. Look at the conditions of in some of prisons in the US. They have the appearance of being pretty cruel and unusual. But they are not legally cruel and unusual. [/QUOTE] If I’m understanding your argument correctly, the only thing that would satisfy you is a US court issuing a decision that specifically “waterboarding is torture”? And then it would be wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/26 "2008-04-12T18:11:21Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Since when does a ruling by a state court settle an issue of federal law? And do you have a link to the full decision? The part you quoted does not say that the “water cure” is torture. From what I can find of the case, the issue was whether a “water cure” confession can be introduced at a criminal trial. The court found that it was coercive and thus could not be introduced at trial. The case would be closer to being on point, if the government was trying to introduce confessions procured by waterboarding in a criminal trial. The only part of the decision I see that calls the “water cure” torture in this: But the issue was not whether the “water cure” was torture so that part of the decision is mere dicta. It is also unclear that if the court was making a determination as to whether the “water cure” was legally torture or just using the word “torture” in a looser sense. [/QUOTE] Oh for fucks sake. Fine, turn the greatest experiment in freedom and democracy man has ever attempted into a country that tortures people. You sicken me. In my opinion if you think torturing people is okay, you are a pretty piss poor American. I’m going to take a stab at your reply: _“b.. buh buh buh but, it isnt’ legally torture!”_ ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/27 "2008-04-12T18:15:08Z")
[QUOTE=Lobohan] If I’m understanding your argument correctly, the only thing that would satisfy you is a US court issuing a decision that specifically “waterboarding is torture”? [/QUOTE] A court decision that specifically addresses the legality of the use of “enhanced interrogation techniques” (including waterboarding) or a federal statute that specifically and clearly addresses the issue. These things do not exist. > [@](#): > > And then it would be wrong? Why would it be wrong? The issue is fuzzy and we need court decisions to clear it up. But you cannot say, that it is legally torture just like you cannot say that is legally not torture. A person can make valid arguments either way, but no definitive answer can be reached. Edit - New laws could also clear this up. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/28 "2008-04-12T18:17:51Z")
[QUOTE=Lobohan] Oh for fucks sake. Fine, turn the greatest experiment in freedom and democracy man has ever attempted into a country that tortures people. You sicken me. In my opinion if you think torturing people is okay, you are a pretty piss poor American. I’m going to take a stab at your reply: _“b.. buh buh buh but, it isnt’ legally torture!”_ [/QUOTE] Did I say it OK? No. I said it might be legal. I do not not care about the morality of the issue. And a good argument can be made that it is not legally torture. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/29 "2008-04-12T18:19:24Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] Remember when we all laughed at Clinton for engaging in this sort of semantic sophistry? [/QUOTE] Yeah, but Clinton was talking about oral sex. Bush (or his defenders) are talking about torture. Call me a naive hippy-dippy idealist, but one of these two behaviors seems to be much worse than the other, morally speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/30 "2008-04-12T18:21:35Z")
If this stuff is already legally torture and illegal, why was the bill that was vetoed even necessary? [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/08/national/main3919474.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/08/national/main3919474.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/31 "2008-04-12T18:22:22Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] That is because of all the bad press they got. The legal reasoning is still valid. [/QUOTE] Maybe to Fox News analysts. No one else is gonna fall for that line. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/32 "2008-04-12T18:23:08Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Yeah, but Clinton was talking about oral sex. Bush (or his defenders) are talking about torture. Call me a naive hippy-dippy idealist, but one of these two behaviors seems to be much worse than the other, morally speaking. [/QUOTE] Exactly, when will the librahls understand that we need to stop oral sex? Why argue about torturing arabs without a trial, when we have women on their knees slurping up _the devil’s communion_? [/republican base] ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/33 "2008-04-12T18:25:03Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] If this stuff is already legally torture and illegal, why was the bill that was vetoed even necessary? > **[Bush Vetoes Bill Banning Torture](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bush-vetoes-bill-banning-torture/?index=1)** > > Says CIA May Need To Use Harsh Interrogation Techniques That Critics Call Black Mark On America [/QUOTE] Because the administration is trying to make a case for it not being illegal, knowing that the headlines will have the exact effect it is having on you. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/34 "2008-04-12T18:34:21Z")
Here’s the thing. We have clear evidence that Bush and Cheney support and have in the past supported torture. We have few or no prosecutions of Lynndie Englands superiors. If we aren’t going to go after the people who told England it was OK to torture, and the people who told them it would be OK to tell folks like England to torture … and it is almost certain that that occurred … then putting England alone in jail doesn’t seem so much like punishment for crimes committed, as it does … persecution. Lynndie England’s mother is right … her kid is being singled out for punishment to give the public a whipping girl for the deeds at Abu Ghraib, along wit hthe four or five other low-level service personnel who were actually prosecuted. If we aren’t going after the obviously and clearly guilty officers and civil servants (i.e., Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld) then we ought to pardon England and her fellow prisoners. Time to put an end to this sick charade we call “military justice.” ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/35 "2008-04-12T18:35:51Z")
[QUOTE=Lobohan] Because the administration is trying to make a case for it not being illegal, knowing that the headlines will have the exact effect it is having on you. [/QUOTE] Then I suppose you can cite the laws and legal decisions that clearly make “enhanced interrogation techniques” and the way they are being used by the Bush administration illegal? I await your cites, but, please, do not just post a person’s or a group’s opinion. I want a cite that has force of law, which should be easy, if, as you say, it is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/36 "2008-04-12T19:22:53Z")
**Two and a Half** , do you base your moral, ethical and behavioral decisions entirely upon the letter of U.S. law? If so, do you really need to be shown the myriad levels on which that’s inconceivably stupid? If not, what the fuck is your point? Please advise. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/37 "2008-04-12T19:24:37Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] No, it found that: That decision does not say that waterboarding alone is torture. [/QUOTE] You are an amazingly stupid fuck. All those things listed constitute torture. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t have been enumerated. So when a court specifies a list of things that are torture, none of them individually are torture unless thay are ALL applied to the victim simultaneously. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/38 "2008-04-12T19:57:52Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] You are an amazingly stupid fuck. All those things listed constitute torture. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t have been enumerated. So when a court specifies a list of things that are torture, none of them individually are torture unless thay are ALL applied to the victim simultaneously. [/QUOTE] Read the quote again. Notice the coordinating conjunction used in the list is “and,” not “or.” From this we have to conclude the court was referring to all the incidents taken as a whole, plus the unlisted incidents. The court is saying that the course of conduct (that included a list of things) was torture - meaning the entire course of treatment taken as a whole was torture, not that each individual incident on its own would be torture. Each incident might be or it might not be torture on its own, but that is not something we can take directly from the decision. > [@](#): > > a course of conduct that included, among other things, severe beatings of plaintiff, repeated threats of death and electric shock, sleep deprivation, extended shackling to a cot (at times with a towel over his nose and mouth and water poured down his nostrils), seven months of confinement in a “suffocatingly hot” and cramped cell, **and** eight years of solitary or near-solitary confinement, constituted torture The court could have made a ruling that would have made any of these things torture by writing: > [@](#): > > any course of conduct that includes, among other things, severe beatings of plaintiff, repeated threats of death and electric shock, sleep deprivation, extended shackling to a cot (at times with a towel over his nose and mouth and water poured down his nostrils), seven months of confinement in a “suffocatingly hot” and cramped cell, or eight years of solitary or near-solitary confinement, constitutes torture Instead, the court wrote a decision that is specifically about the entire course conduct that a specific defendant endured. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/39 "2008-04-12T20:01:58Z")
[QUOTE=Roland Orzabal] **Two and a Half** , do you base your moral, ethical and behavioral decisions entirely upon the letter of U.S. law? If so, do you really need to be shown the myriad levels on which that’s inconceivably stupid? If not, what the fuck is your point? Please advise. [/QUOTE] I am not concerned with the moral issues related to the government using torture as a part of the war on terror. I am not saying the issues are not important. I am just saying I am not concerned with them. I am more concerned with discussing the legal issues. (And, no, I do not base my moral, ethical, or behavioral decision entirely upon the law.) ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/40 "2008-04-12T20:07:04Z")
The US tried and executed Japanese war criminals for waterboarding US POWs in WWII. > **[Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html)** > > As a JAG in the Nevada National Guard, I used to lecture the soldiers of the 72nd Military Police Company every year about their legal obligations when they guarded prisoners. I'd always conclude by saying, "I know you won't remember everything I... How shameful that we now do it ourselves. **2.5" of fun** , do you look at yourself in the mirror in the morning? How? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027.md?page=3)