# So is Lynndie England gonna get a pardon? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2008, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027 "2008-04-12T13:28:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/61 "2008-04-13T16:14:55Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Sure. How much? How? [/QUOTE] How about $50? We can figure out how later. You are asserting the Bush will issue a blanket pardon, applicable to unnamed people for unspecified crimes. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/62 "2008-04-13T16:29:02Z")
A couple of quotes that might be on topic: Countries avoid a declaration of war so they may claim, the laws and customs of war do not apply and need not be observed. Japan never declared war on China. Instead the fighting was euphemized as an incident. Chinese troops were not soldiers but bandits. One of the customs of war Japan was able to flout in this incident against bandits was acknowledgement that captured Chinese soldiers were prisoners of war. A 1933 army infantry textbook assured IJA officers that when they took prisoners, if you kill them there will be no repercussions. In a 1937 directive the army vice chief of staff stated: In the present situation, in order to wage total war in China, the empire will neither apply nor act in accordance with, all the concrete articles of the Treaty Concerning the laws and Customs of Land Warfare and Other Treaties Concerning the Laws and Regulations of Belligerency. The same directive ordered, Staff officers in China to stop using the term prisoner of war. As Pulitzer-prize winning historian Herb Blix pointed out, Hirohito himself supported the policy of withholding a declaration of war against China and ratified and personally endorsed the decision to remove the constraints of international war on the treatment of Chinese prisoners of war. Thus, Chinese soldiers taken in battle were denied the status of prisoners of war upon the same pretext and many of them were massacred, tortured or drafted into Japanese labor camps. –From Flyboys, Copyright 2003 by James Brady, Page 54Ö “Men who take up arms against one another in public war do not cease on this account to be moral beings, responsible to one another and to God.” - Abraham Lincoln, Gen. Orders No. 100, art. 15 (1863). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/63 "2008-04-13T21:11:08Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] There has already been legislation passed that gives the CIA folks immunity, but the military is going to prosecute this sort of stuff whenever it surfaces. Frankly, I think they didn’t go far enough up the chain of command, but that’s another matter. [/QUOTE] a rather essential matter, since it reeks of the court’s participation in scapegoating. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/64 "2008-04-15T12:08:31Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] I just walk up and focus my eyes. It is not hard. I do not see why my conscience should be bothered. Again, I am not making any claims about the morality of the use of “enhanced interrogation techniques.” I am only discussing the legal issues. Even if I am completely wrong, it would only show that I had a misunderstanding of an area of the law that is extremely difficult even for experts in the field. That is hardly what I would consider a moral failing. [/QUOTE] I was discussing legal issues too, jerk off. How about discussing this legal issue: we fucking tried and executed Japanese soldiers for waterboarding US POWs in WWII. That’s a legal issue. Discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/65 "2008-04-15T19:57:12Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] I was discussing legal issues too, jerk off. How about discussing this legal issue: we fucking tried and executed Japanese soldiers for waterboarding US POWs in WWII. That’s a legal issue. Discuss. [/QUOTE] Is the US waterboarding POW’s or Enemy Combatants? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/66 "2008-04-15T20:36:08Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Is the US waterboarding POW’s or Enemy Combatants? [/QUOTE] You need to get your terminology straight, since captured enemy combatants are POWs. I think you mean “unlawful combatants”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/67 "2008-04-15T20:40:05Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Is the US waterboarding POW’s or Enemy Combatants? [/QUOTE] An enemy combatant is a POW you haven’t captured yet. The President’s authority to detain unlawful combatants only exists during wartime. Since we haven’t declared war on anyone, we can’t very well detain them as such. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/68 "2008-04-15T20:40:49Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] An enemy combatant is a POW you haven’t captured yet. [/QUOTE] That is not what the law says. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/69 "2008-04-15T20:42:28Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] You need to get your terminology straight, since captured enemy combatants are POWs. I think you mean “unlawful combatants”. [/QUOTE] Actually “enemy combatants” covers both lawful combatants (POWs) and “unlawful combatants”- basically anyone who isn’t a member of the armed forces of a sovereign state, although it’s a bit more complex than that. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/70 "2008-04-15T20:44:14Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] The President’s authority to detain unlawful combatants only exists during wartime. Since we haven’t declared war on anyone, we can’t very well detain them as such. [/QUOTE] Perhaps you missed the Authorization for Use of Military Force that Congress passed. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/71 "2008-04-15T20:55:34Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Actually “enemy combatants” covers both lawful combatants (POWs) and “unlawful combatants”- basically anyone who isn’t a member of the armed forces of a sovereign state, although it’s a bit more complex than that. [/QUOTE] You’re right on the first part. On the second part, unlawful combatants can include members of armed forces, if they are concealing their identity, e.g., going round wearing civilian clothes in enemy territory and carrying out clandestine military operations. Having a military ID card in your pocket does not save your skin in those circumstances, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/72 "2008-04-15T22:16:08Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Perhaps you missed the Authorization for Use of Military Force that Congress passed. [/QUOTE] Well, I for one fully support the use of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques on Enemy Combatants captured during our Use of Military Force, if it will keep us from torturing POWs during wartime. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/73 "2008-04-15T22:24:15Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Perhaps you missed the Authorization for Use of Military Force that Congress passed. [/QUOTE] …which was authorization under the laws of the United States to take military action, having nothing to do with the formal declaration of war. Congress declares war via a joint resolution of both houses acknowledging that a state of war exists. Every US military engagement since WWII has, technically, been a police action. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/74 "2008-04-16T00:14:31Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Is the US waterboarding POW’s or Enemy Combatants? [/QUOTE] What does it matter? You’ve said flat out that waterboarding is not torture, until courts say so. You’ve been shown several instances where US courts have decalared waterboarding constitutes torture. Is it any more or less torture depending on who it’s used against? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/75 "2008-04-16T01:21:30Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] What does it matter? You’ve said flat out that waterboarding is not torture, until courts say so. You’ve been shown several instances where US courts have decalared waterboarding constitutes torture. Is it any more or less torture depending on who it’s used against? [/QUOTE] Yes. You have to show a specific statute or decision that says waterboarding as applied by the administration is torture and illegal. I have already gone over why the decisions quoted do not apply. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/76 "2008-04-16T02:01:24Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] Well, I for one fully support the use of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques on Enemy Combatants captured during our Use of Military Force, if it will keep us from torturing POWs during wartime. [/QUOTE] Won’t do it. Cat’s outta the bag. We’re going to torture everyone. It’ll leak over into our domestic police apparatus, too. Just see if it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027/77 "2008-04-17T21:28:01Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] There was no acknowledgment of torture. “Enhanced interrogation techniques” are not necessarily torture. [/QUOTE] Of course not, Mr. President. And "forcible intromission _per anum"_ is not necessarily butt-rape. Now please grab your ankles and pray for death. [sound of elaborate gasoline-powered penetration device, similar to sound of a chainsaw, being fired up] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-lynndie-england-gonna-get-a-pardon/445027.md?page=3)