# So is the concept of HRC that the Christian Right has a problem with or just the current plan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-concept-of-hrc-that-the-christian-right-has-a-problem-with-or-just-the-current-plan/533423 "2010-03-23T01:53:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-concept-of-hrc-that-the-christian-right-has-a-problem-with-or-just-the-current-plan/533423/61 "2010-03-24T05:05:48Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > It’s my belief – which you apparently reject – that Jesus, in speaking out against casting the first stone in between advocating that folks turn the other cheek and resist not evil while forgiving trespasses and judging not and all that stuff, was making it impossible for a Christian to forcibly take money away from someone who wanted to keep it This is a ridiculous non-sequitur. It’s also not any kind of real Christian belief, nor does it have anything to do with taxes. you can’t hit such folks back if they smite you, you can but forgive them while refusing to resist them sure as you can neither judge them nor cast a stone at them. > [@](#): > > I therefore don’t see how a Christian could authorize a tax against someone; so long as Jesus laid out no exceptions – for HCR or anything else – a Christian can only ever agree to forgive people who refuse to pay that tax, sure as he can never judge such folks. He also can’t refuse to pay such a tax, but I don’t see that he can justifiedly require anybody else to do so. Really? You think absolutely no tax can be suppported by a Christian? Can you point to a single mainstream Christian denomination which supports this tirtured, idiosynchratic interpretation of scripture,. can you also explain how any structured society can sustain itself without taxes? Effectively, you’re saying that Christians have to be anarchists – that they can’t support any government at all. That’s a very novel interpretation of the teachings of Jesus, but it really doesn’t have much to do with explaining why the political religious right in the US opposes HCR. Can you provide a cite that this is the argumentation they use? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-concept-of-hrc-that-the-christian-right-has-a-problem-with-or-just-the-current-plan/533423/62 "2010-03-24T05:18:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is a ridiculous non-sequitur. It’s also not any kind of real Christian belief, nor does it have anything to do with taxes. you can’t hit such folks back if they smite you, you can but forgive them while refusing to resist them sure as you can neither judge them nor cast a stone at them. It’s not _ **any** _ kind of real Christian belief? I wonder if the Amish would agree with you. > [@](#): > > Really? You think absolutely no tax can be suppported by a Christian? Can you point to a single mainstream Christian denomination which supports this tirtured, idiosynchratic interpretation of scripture,. can you also explain how any structured society can sustain itself without taxes? Effectively, you’re saying that Christians have to be anarchists – that they can’t support any government at all. That’s not what I’m saying at all. As you and I have both said, a Christian _ **is** _ obligated to pay his taxes. > [@](#): > > That’s a very novel interpretation of the teachings of Jesus, but it really doesn’t have much to do with explaining why the political religious right in the US opposes HCR. Can you provide a cite that this is the argumentation they use? I’m afraid that’s not how this works. The OP cited a couple of principles that command a Christian to pay his taxes and give his possessions to the poor, and then in a pure non sequitur moved on to discussing whether those principles apply to making someone else do that against that person’s will; they don’t, and I merely wish to (a) point out that said principles don’t lead to that conclusion, and perhaps (b) mention _ **additional** _ principles: forgiving people instead of judging them, turning the other cheek and resisting not evil, and so on – but it’s the _ **other** _ side that needs to produce a Christian principle that touches on instituting a new tax on others against their will; I’m merely saying I saw no such principle in the OP and have seen none since. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-concept-of-hrc-that-the-christian-right-has-a-problem-with-or-just-the-current-plan/533423/63 "2010-03-24T05:57:14Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Supporting that measure involves forcing people to pay money they’d rather not part with. Wouldn’t doing that as a private citizen be an affront to God? …I’m not aware of Jesus spelling out such an exception for group action; possibly you are. Cite? AFAIK, the only people in all of history who’ve espoused the crazy viewpoint Mr. Pepper attributes to Jesus are [ul][li]bomb-throwing anarchists[/li][li] lunatics, psychopaths and idiots[/li][li] the modern American right-wing[/li][/ul] Thus, although I don’t claim to be a theologian, to suggest Jesus belongs in this group seems sacrilegious. Let me offer a simple example to make the point clear. 53,000 years ago, Ugg injured his knee, and Chief Boobi-boobi then _ordered_ one of the other band members to part with some of his valuable stock of medicinal leaves to help Ugg. The other bandsmen understood the appropriateness of Boobi-boobi’s order; in fact that’s partly why he’d been chosen as Chief. 30,000 years later people were even more enlightened and yet they still understood this. Africans understood it, Asians understood it, Greeks and Romans understood it; and yes even Jesus understood it. Everyone understands it except psychopaths, anarchists, etc. Cheez! I read these threads and right-wingers keep claiming to have intellectual standing and in fact claim to pursue deep moral principles that liberals can’t comprehend! I’m sorry; most of the time you just make me laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-concept-of-hrc-that-the-christian-right-has-a-problem-with-or-just-the-current-plan/533423/64 "2010-03-24T06:01:27Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > It’s not _ **any** _ kind of real Christian belief? I wonder if the Amish would agree with you. I didn’t mean to incorporate that “smiting” stuff into that response. I accidentally included part of your own post there. The Amish believe that it’s a sin to ever collect taxes? Cite? > [@](#): > > That’s not what I’m saying at all. As you and I have both said, a Christian _ **is** _ obligated to pay his taxes. That’s a different question. The question is whether a Christian can _support_ a tax, not just acquiesce to it. > [@](#): > > I’m afraid that’s not how this works. The OP cited a couple of principles that command a Christian to pay his taxes and give his possessions to the poor, and then in a pure non sequitur moved on to discussing whether those principles apply to making someone else do that against that person’s will; they don’t, and I merely wish to (a) point out that said principles don’t lead to that conclusion, and perhaps (b) mention _ **additional** _ principles: forgiving people instead of judging them, turning the other cheek and resisting not evil, and so on – but it’s the _ **other** _ side that needs to produce a Christian principle that touches on instituting a new tax on others against their will; I’m merely saying I saw no such principle in the OP and have seen none since. This is a mischaracterization of the OP. He asked why these self-identified Christians would not want to use their own power of self-government to achieve the goals that Jesus set out for them. You response that they don’t want to collect taxes “against people’s will” is an unconvincing one since they support doing that all the time. It’s also not a principle supported by any kind of Scripture, nor is it, as far as I know, the argumentation that these people themselves attempt to employ. Taxes aside (and that’s actually a fairly minor part of HCR), can you explain why they would oppose things like not allowing insurance companies to dump customers in the midst of cataostrophic illnesses, or fgrom denying coverage for people with preexisting conditions? I don’t know who you think you’re kidding, but the Christian right opposition to this is not about some ultra-nuanced interpretation of Scripture, it’s about knee-jerk political resistance to a President they don’t like. You know it, I know it, the American people know it. Why try to deny it? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-concept-of-hrc-that-the-christian-right-has-a-problem-with-or-just-the-current-plan/533423/65 "2010-03-24T06:20:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s a different question. The question is whether a Christian can _support_ a tax, not just acquiesce to it. No, it’s deeper than that. You asked: _“can you also explain how any structured society can sustain itself without taxes? Effectively, you’re saying that Christians have to be anarchists – that they can’t support any government at all.”_ If you agree that we’re on the same page about how Christians are supposed to acquiesce to such a tax, then I don’t see how you can accuse me of saying that Christians have to be anarchists; I’m saying they have to be law-abiding taxpayers who support any existing government program, be it the anal-lube supply you mentioned or the HCR that’s the point of the OP. [QUOTE=Diogenes] This is a mischaracterization of the OP. He asked why these self-identified Christians would not want to use their own power of self-government to achieve the goals that Jesus set out for them. You response that they don’t want to collect taxes “against people’s will” is an unconvincing one since they support doing that all the time. [/QUOTE] And my reply – so many times that I can’t help but wonder if I’ll be banned – is that whether they’re wrong on those all-the-time _ **other** _ occasions is irrelevant to whether they’re for once getting it right _ **this** _ time. [QUOTE=Diogenes] I don’t know who you think you’re kidding, but the Christian right opposition to this is not about some ultra-nuanced interpretation of Scripture… [/QUOTE] How is it ultra-nuanced? It’s utterly straightforward. Like I said in post #60, with emphasis added: > [@](#): > > Jesus told his followers to resist not evil; it was up to God to reverse the class order, he didn’t want Christians to go out and start making changes by force. Jesus further commanded his followers to not even _ **think** _ in those terms: _"shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Judge not, that ye be not judged. "_ > > It’s pretty danged straightforward: Christians aren’t supposed to judge people any more than they’re supposed to take thought of where their next meal is coming from tomorrow. > > _“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?”_ > > \*\*Christians aren’t supposed to worry about maintaining any kind of structured society; they’re supposed to give no thought to the needs of tomorrow, in between forgiving trespasses even after turning the other cheek when getting smacked upside the head – because what’s paramount is refusing to judge people or resist evil and so on and so forth. \*\* That’s not nuance. That’s, like, the _opposite_ of nuance. > [@](#): > > The Amish believe that it’s a sin to ever collect taxes? Cite? I’m not saying they believe that. > [@](#): > > Taxes aside (and that’s actually a fairly minor part of HCR), can you explain why they would oppose things like not allowing insurance companies to dump customers in the midst of cataostrophic illnesses, or fgrom denying coverage for people with preexisting conditions? “Resist not evil” is a good start. “Judge not” probably fits, likewise. “Forgive men their trespasses”, too. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-concept-of-hrc-that-the-christian-right-has-a-problem-with-or-just-the-current-plan/533423/66 "2010-03-25T03:35:13Z")
Here is a [link](http://www.visionforum.com/Onlineemail/vision-forum/2010/03/24_samaritan_ministries/) to a webpage describing a Christian objection to the recent health care legislation. Personally, I thought it was full of poo, though to each his own, I guess. However, when the discussion morphed into an insurance sales pitch (complete with FREE book), I nearly fell out of my chair. So, as the site says, “Do Yourself a Favor — Investigate This God-Blessed Option.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-concept-of-hrc-that-the-christian-right-has-a-problem-with-or-just-the-current-plan/533423.md?page=3)