# So is the war in Afghanistan a good war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107 "2009-07-06T18:22:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/181 "2009-07-11T21:08:58Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > And what were we to do, sit idly by while terrorists struck us? Wring our hands and cry “woe is us, we deserve this because we, like every other giant oil-consuming nation, have foreign affairs in the Middle East”? There’s a huge difference between having foreign affairs in different countries and actively interfering in them. The latter approach is far more likely to produce terrorist attacks. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/182 "2009-07-11T22:18:57Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > There’s a huge difference between having foreign affairs in different countries and actively interfering in them. The latter approach is far more likely to produce terrorist attacks. Isn’t Osama bin Laden pissed at the USA because of our military presence in Saudi Arabia, a presence I might add that was requested or approved of by the Saudi royal family after Saddam invaded Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia? And as a response to that, Al-Qaeda is formed and begins terrorist operations against the USA and elsewhere including the first WTC bombing, the USS Cole, the embassy in Kenya, 9/11, the bombing in Spain, the bombing in London, many captures and beheadings, etc…I’m sorry, what was it we were supposed to do about it exactly? Tell them “we’re sorry for being in your holy land?” Fuck that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/183 "2009-07-11T23:26:28Z")
So our choices are wimpy or brutally stupid? That’s it? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/184 "2009-07-11T23:51:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So our choices are wimpy or brutally stupid? That’s it? How is militarily responding to the biggest attack on US soil _ever_ brutally stupid? The Iraq war was stupid, brutally so, but the war in Afghanistan, not so much. At least not in it’s inception. Maybe in the way it’s being conducted is up for debate. I’ve often heard or read the (meme?) that “the only thing _those people_ (Ayrabs) understand is force” Is there any truth to that or is that something people just say? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/185 "2009-07-12T00:24:23Z")
The Cheney assassination squad story was based on [this one from last March 9:](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/world/asia/10terror.html?hp) > [@](#): > > The halt, which lasted about two weeks, came after a series of nighttime raids by Special Operations troops in recent months killed women and children, and after months of mounting outrage in Afghanistan about civilians killed in air and ground strikes…a sign of just how worried military officials are that the fallout from civilian casualties is putting in peril the overall American mission in Afghanistan, including an effort to drain the Taliban of popular support. Make sense, people? It should. > [@](#): > > the military’s Joint Special Operations Command, which oversees the secret commando units. That’s who Hersh was referring to in his pre-article Minneapolis talk. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/186 "2009-07-12T00:27:00Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I’ve often heard or read the (meme?) that “the only thing _those people_ (Ayrabs) understand is force” > > Is there any truth to that or is that something people just say? There’s truth to it when used about anybody _who says it themselves_. If you make yourself believe it about “the other”, then force is the only “language” you yourself will try to use. And then the evidence is that force is the only language YOU understand. Look at most of our recent wars for examples. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/187 "2009-07-12T00:31:45Z")
Besides bringing the conspirators to justice after 9/11/01, we had perhaps one arguably appropriate ancillary mission in Afghanistan, which was to eliminate the Taliban as a viable political actor, justified by their support for international terrorism. That mission implies a corrollary obligation, to deliver enough aid and support to allow Afghanistan to develop a credible independent political system. And then get out. That obligation would’ve required the troops GWB sent to Iraq, plus a whole lot of direct aid. A Marshall Plan for Afghanistan would’ve been appropriate. We might’ve even been able to do that and withdraw most of our troops after a decade or so. Such a consideration should’ve factored into our strategic decision whether to pursue the ancillary mission itself, one might think. Now… I think we’ll be lucky to prevent a much bigger South Asian conflict than Vietnam ever was. And it’ll involve _every_ major power before it’s done, and possibly create some new ones. I hope I’m wrong. But I’m in the same group of unqualified amateurs that saw the ugly reactionary storm that was coming in the US before the end of that September of '01, and warned about the folly of Iraq during the elections of '02. So if you believe I’m wrong, instead of just hope I am, please give me some supporting data and argument. Because I’d really like to believe it too. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/188 "2009-07-12T00:40:45Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > …I’ve often heard or read the (meme?) that “the only thing _those people_ (Ayrabs) understand is force” > > Is there any truth to that or is that something people just say? There’s a lot of people like that. The Sioux, Comanche, Japanese, Communists, Koreans, Communist Koreans, Filipinos, Mexicans. They have no respect for human life. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/189 "2009-07-12T01:17:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There’s a lot of people like that. The Sioux, Comanche, Japanese, Communists, Koreans, Communist Koreans, Filipinos, Mexicans. They have no respect for human life. Well, to be fair, the communist regimes that have existed on this planet are more responsible for death and woe upon their own citizenry than even the fascists. America may deal the death to other countries, but to it’s own in the form of gulags, executions, disappearing in the night? Not so much. Unless you count Vince Foster, of course. He was about to blow the whistle on the whole humidor. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/190 "2009-07-12T01:22:17Z")
Aiming for not evil at all. Less evil doesn’t interest me. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/191 "2009-07-12T01:38:43Z")
Arabs were civilized centuries before we were thought of. Ever use Arabic Numerals? They were trading around the known world centuries ago. To imply they are some backward people who have to be whipped into shape is a pathetic excuse to use power over diplomacy. We have been attacking countries for most of our existence. We have interfered with sovereign countries over and over. Who is uncivilized? Power and force are our tools of trade. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/192 "2009-07-12T03:36:37Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Arabs were civilized centuries before we were thought of. Ever use Arabic Numerals? They were trading around the known world centuries ago. To imply they are some backward people who have to be whipped into shape is a pathetic excuse to use power over diplomacy. We have been attacking countries for most of our existence. We have interfered with sovereign countries over and over. Who is uncivilized? Power and force are our tools of trade. That is a remarkably naive interpretation of history. That may have been so many moons ago, but isn’t true now. As for this “creating enemies as we go” argument, the enemies are already in place. If we kill 1,000 Taliban fighters and in the process kill 32 civilians, and of the survivors, 48 decide to join the Taliban cause…I’m OK with those numbers. I guess I’m heartless like that. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/193 "2009-07-12T03:37:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Aiming for not evil at all. Less evil doesn’t interest me. Apparently, nothing that involves reality does interest you. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/194 "2009-07-12T03:48:26Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Arabs were civilized centuries before we were thought of. [/QUOTE] Who’s ‘we’, kimosabe? And what has this got to do with anything? > [@](#): > > Ever use Arabic Numerals? A time or too, yes. And your point is…? > [@](#): > > They were trading around the known world centuries ago. Uhuh. So were a lot of peoples. Again…your point would be…? > [@](#): > > To imply they are some backward people who have to be whipped into shape is a pathetic excuse to use power over diplomacy. Are we talking about Arabs in general, or Afghani’s? I must have missed someone saying either group were backward people needing to be whipped into shape, or that this was used as an excuse for power. Smells like a strawman to me. We didn’t go into Afghanistan because the Afghani’s were backward (both economically and politically…probably had something to do with decades of civil war, coupled with a vicious war with the Soviets and magnified by the levels of poverty and religious fundamentalism that has gripped the region over that period). We went in because that’s where AQ had bases, and the quasi-government in control of the country supported AQ and refused to hand them over to us. It’s really as simple as that. Let me ask you (and the others on your nominal side)…why do YOU think we went into Afghanistan? I ask this because I just spent several futile pages discussing this very topic in another of those 9/11 CT threads, so I’m curious where you and others stand on this. After the CT thread nothing would shock me, so fire away. > [@](#): > > We have been attacking countries for most of our existence. Again, who is ‘we’? The US? The West? Human beings in general? Our lizard alien overlords? The Illuminati? > [@](#): > > Who is uncivilized? I suppose that depends on what you mean by ‘uncivilized’ exactly. It seems to me that, in general, the most ‘civilized’ nations are usually the ones who commit the most wide spread mayhem, historically…while the ‘uncivilized’ generally are limited to the amount of inhumanity they can accomplish to a purely local level. I’d have to say that, relatively speaking, the Taliban were certainly more brutal and ‘uncivilized’ than the US could ever match…they were simply limited in their brutality to purely local levels. > [@](#): > > Power and force are our tools of trade. 😛 Very profound. The difference between the US and, say, the pre-invasion Taliban were that the Taliban used power and force on a purely local level (and with a much heavier hand), while the US (and other super powers) use force and power on a global level. It’s simply a matter of degree. Not that I expect you to understand this, mind, but I figured I’d at least comment. > [@](#): > > Of course 18 of the high jackers were Saudis. The Saudis actually have been funneling money into El Queda for decades. Afghanistan is just where the camps were. It is just wrong if your intent is to end terrorism. That’s true. But, you probably missed the fact that AQ (it’s Al Qaeda btw, not El) did not have any bases in Saudi, while they did have such bases in Afghanistan…which probably explains why we went to Afghanistan instead of Saudi. Well, that’s why I think we went there…I await, with bated breath, your own explanation as to why we went to Afghanistan. BTW, your last sentence is a total strawman…no one, not even that idiot Bush, said that going to Afghanistan (or Iraq for that matter) was going to end terrorism. -XT ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/195 "2009-07-12T13:08:44Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Does Barack have a blank check with the Dems as regards this war? Are there no substantial voices raised in opposition? All who have entered Afghanistan with military forces in the past have had bitter cause to regret it, save possibly Alexander the Great. Give the man a cigar, he got it! Dems suddenly aren’t very anti-war (or torture, or whatever other Bush cause) when it’s a Blue hatted Dauphin at the head of the Imperial Project. What a surprise. RE: Afghanistan, what’s that Mark Twain quote? “There are many humorous things in the world, among them the white man’s notion that he is less savage than the other savages.” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/196 "2009-07-12T13:30:27Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > That is a remarkably naive interpretation of history. That may have been so many moons ago, but isn’t true now. > > As for this “creating enemies as we go” argument, the enemies are already in place. If we kill 1,000 Taliban fighters and in the process kill 32 civilians, and of the survivors, 48 decide to join the Taliban cause…I’m OK with those numbers. > > I guess I’m heartless like that. Very humane. If you can bend the numbers to make a profit, then killing is fine. We are making numerical progress. But what if we are not? What if our cruelty is making more enemies than you can kill? Perhaps we have to accelerate the killing machines. Nice treadmill of death you are on. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/197 "2009-07-12T16:06:47Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > That is a remarkably naive interpretation of history. That may have been so many moons ago, but isn’t true now. > > As for this “creating enemies as we go” argument, the enemies are already in place. If we kill 1,000 Taliban fighters and in the process kill 32 civilians, and of the survivors, 48 decide to join the Taliban cause…I’m OK with those numbers. > > I guess I’m heartless like that. Now, we’re getting somewhere! Cold, hard, realistic numbers, something we can work with! So, 32 innocent lives snuffed out to kill 1,000 enemy soldiers, that is within the ratio of acceptability? Good! How about 64, then? 128? 256? At what point do you scruple? At what point do you say “Hold! Enough!”? And how many of our own? If I’m right about this (and I have been right when you were wrong, despite my tenuous grip on “reality”…), then to win this thing is going to require a lot of casualties on our part. How many are you OK with? The Viet Cong/NVA were willing to lose ten of theirs to kill one of ours. And they were atheists, they didn’t think they were going straight to Paradise if they die in battle. How much more or less committed do you expect the Taliban fighters are? In your hard-headed and realistic estimation, how many of our best and brightest should we expect to sacrifice to this noble end? And how many is too many? I think you can probably guess my answer, but then again, I’m just a fuzzy-thinking civilian, and a hippy to boot! No doubt your answer will be much more grounded in fact. So, what would that be, then? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/198 "2009-07-12T16:52:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Now, we’re getting somewhere! Cold, hard, realistic numbers, something we can work with! So, 32 innocent lives snuffed out to kill 1,000 enemy soldiers, that is within the ratio of acceptability? Good! How about 64, then? 128? 256? > > At what point do you scruple? At what point do you say “Hold! Enough!”? > > And how many of our own? If I’m right about this (and I have been right when you were wrong, despite my tenuous grip on “reality”…), then to win this thing is going to require a lot of casualties on our part. How many are you OK with? > > The Viet Cong/NVA were willing to lose ten of theirs to kill one of ours. And they were atheists, they didn’t think they were going straight to Paradise if they die in battle. How much more or less committed do you expect the Taliban fighters are? In your hard-headed and realistic estimation, how many of our best and brightest should we expect to sacrifice to this noble end? And how many is too many? > > I think you can probably guess my answer, but then again, I’m just a fuzzy-thinking civilian, and a hippy to boot! No doubt your answer will be much more grounded in fact. So, what would that be, then? As many as it takes to accomplish the mission I suppose. Now, besides destroying the Taliban (if that’s even totally possible) and maybe putting a huge dent in the opium production (which hasn’t happened as of yet), I don’t know what the mission really is beyond that. And sorry about the snide remark upthread…alcohol has a way with a fella. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/199 "2009-07-12T16:57:45Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > As many as it takes to accomplish the mission I suppose. Wow. Must be one hell of an important mission then. > [@](#): > > Now, besides destroying the Taliban (if that’s even totally possible) and maybe putting a huge dent in the opium production (which hasn’t happened as of yet), I don’t know what the mission really is beyond that. Ah. Well, I’m sure we’ll find a mission after we’ve spent enough blood and treasure. And killed enough collateral civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/200 "2009-07-12T17:25:18Z")
Is the Afghanistan war vs. terror a good war? I have to agree that Exhibit A in this case is: We did not attack Saudi Arabia. Yah sure there are some AQ camps in Afghanistan. It is extremely difficult to get any details beyond that. For example -how many camps? -got a map of their locations for me? -How many AQ guys are we talking about? How many AQ guys followed Bin Laden from Sudan to Afghanistan? If the answer is zero, it demonstrates that AQ is a function of money more than of either Bin Laden or of Afghanistan. xtisme: > [@](#): > > We went in because that’s where AQ had bases, and the quasi-government in control of the country supported AQ and refused to hand them over to us. It’s really as simple as that. -There weren’t any AQ bases in Kabul AFAIK. Or in 99.9999% of the rest of Afghanistan Territory either. The terrorists trained in, um, Florida, Spain, Germany, etc. Talk about staging and logistics all you want, if terrorism was the point we could have eliminated the camps (you’ve heard of 'projection of force, no?) and been done with it. The Taliban are assholes, yes, but they are not our problem. -The Taliban were only nominally in control of the country. How did they support AQ? Couldn’t do anything about them is more like it. It hasn’t been demonstrated that the Taliban knew anything of the 911 plans, for instance. In the CT thread you talk derisively about, there never was an example of a single transaction demonstrated between the Taliban and AQ. No money or weapons changing hands, unless you can provide proof… And no, being within the borders of a lawless land doesn’t count as an official government sanction. Transactions from the Saudis to AQ? Um, yes. -It hasn’t been shown that the Taliban could ever turn over AQ. We can’t either, so wtf? Might as well declare war on anyone who doesn’t sprout a tail if that is your standard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107.md?page=11)