# So is the war in Afghanistan a good war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107 "2009-07-06T18:22:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/81 "2009-07-08T21:21:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > At least, not any more. Our bombing of Tokyo, though, or several German cities, would meet that criterion, though. What happened in World War II was _not_ collateral damage, it was deliberate targeting of civilians. Now, does anyone want to argue that World War II was not justified? Nope, and as you point out, that was deliberate. I’m not 100% certain given the technological limitations of the day that we could have necessarily avoided waging the war the same way the Germans and Japanese were waging it on us and still have been victorious. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/82 "2009-07-08T21:26:09Z")
They could have avoided many of those civilian causalities, certainly. There was no reason to fire bomb Tokyo, for instance, except to kill civilians. Nor Dresden. Nor was the Blitz against the Brits necessary…it was a deliberate targeting of the civilian population in order to, theoretically, break their collective wills to continue the war. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/83 "2009-07-08T21:26:23Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Indiscriminate killing is wiping everyone out without regret or a care. We don’t do that. Yes, we do; we just label the people we slaughter “without regret or a care” as “terrorists” or “insurgents”. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/84 "2009-07-08T21:31:39Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Yes, we do; we just label the people we slaughter “without regret or a care” as “terrorists” or “insurgents”. [/QUOTE] Um…you do realize that we have imprisoned many of them, yes? If we were slaughtering them without regard then, well, that whole Gitmo thingy wouldn’t have been a problem. No? Oh, never mind…it’s you. You were being hyperbolic again, no doubt… -XT ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/85 "2009-07-08T21:33:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes, we do; we just label the people we slaughter “without regret or a care” as “terrorists” or “insurgents”. Ah, I knew it was only a matter of time… No we don’t. We label the people we _mean_ to kill “terrorists” or “insurgents” or “enemy combatants” because we were and are _actively targeting them_. We label the people we _didn’t mean to kill_ as “civilians” or, more to the point here, “collateral damage”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/86 "2009-07-08T21:42:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Um…you do realize that we have imprisoned many of them, yes? If we were slaughtering them without regard then, well, that whole Gitmo thingy wouldn’t have been a problem. No? > > Oh, never mind…it’s you. You were being hyperbolic again, no doubt… Don’t be silly. It’s quite possible to unjustly imprison people in one place, and indiscriminately slaughter some other people somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/87 "2009-07-08T21:47:24Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Don’t be silly. It’s quite possible to unjustly imprison people in one place, and indiscriminately slaughter some other people somewhere else. [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t that mean that we are, overall, discriminate in our slaughtering? Even in your own, um, rather special opinion of America? Seems to me that the best you could do, having walked blindly into this logical maze, is to say we are arbitrary in who we slaughter…or, perhaps that we indiscriminately slaughter sometimes, but other times we simply unjustly imprison. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/88 "2009-07-08T21:53:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And that wins the Afghans’ hearts and minds how? “Winning hearts and minds” is a method, not an objective. We didn’t attack Afghanistan because we wanted them to like us, we attacked them because we wanted to incapacitate our enemies. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/89 "2009-07-08T22:05:01Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I don’t pretend to be able to answer that one on my own. The Geneva Conventions spells out pretty clearly what is and is not a lawful combatant - this was done in large part to protect civilian populations. > > In this case those populations are endangered because they cannot easily be distinguished from combatants - because these societies do not in general recognize such a bright dividing line and because the combatants involved see a tactical advantage in fighting without an identifiable uniform. Insurgents in these wars (and in places like Gaza) do not care about protecting their civilian population, and will happily store weapons in civilian centers, operate safe houses there and launch attacks from there. > > In the face of this, the Geneva Conventions seem ill suited alone to address the situation. I wish I knew what to do about it, apart from battlefield counterinsurgency tactics. It isn’t an easy situation to work out legally. It would be considered a war crime to not fight according to the requirements of the Geneva Conventions (ie, wear a uniform, hold weapons openly, etc). If you meet the requirements, then fighting and killing US soldiers is not illegal; but, if say, you don’t wear a uniform (ie, look like a civlian) and fight against the US, that’s illegal. Any country could prosecute you for that under international law. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/90 "2009-07-08T22:28:49Z")
The war in Afghanistan was a good, justified war, that was well exectuted. We won, handily. Then we didn’t leave. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/91 "2009-07-08T22:47:18Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > …Edit: and **Elucidator** , my snarky response towards you was merely a reply to your blithe assertion that only hard-headed men can define what is and what isn’t, and that luckily, they aren’t in short supply. Your remark was just as “unfortunate” as mine. There was nothing personal in my remark, nor had you any reason to take it that way. Yours, on the other hand, was undoubtedly personal and directed specificly. They are not remotely similar. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/92 "2009-07-08T22:59:47Z")
Referring to the failure of Taliban fighters to distinguish themselves from innocent civilians: well, duh. How can we possibly imagine that because a funeral is a Taliban function, that makes it a legitimate military target? Of course their wives and children will be in attendance, how could we expect otherwise? Its their country, isn’t it? We are the foreigners, not they, they know who they are. Shit, its like we invade Texas to make war on the Baptists! Hmmmm. No, bad idea. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/93 "2009-07-08T23:17:00Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > or, perhaps that we indiscriminately slaughter sometimes, but other times we simply unjustly imprison. Yes. And ? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/94 "2009-07-08T23:31:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **There was nothing personal in my remark, nor had you any reason to take it that way**. Yours, on the other hand, was undoubtedly personal and directed specificly. They are not remotely similar. Of course there was and of course I did. I felt your remark not only addressed me, but people in uniform that routinely make such assertions on a daily basis because it’s their job that they volunteered to do. So that’s why I responded in what I felt was “in kind”. If you didn’t intend it that way, then I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/95 "2009-07-08T23:34:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Referring to the failure of Taliban fighters to distinguish themselves from innocent civilians: well, duh. How can we possibly imagine that because a funeral is a Taliban function, that makes it a legitimate military target?** Of course their wives and children will be in attendance, how could we expect otherwise? > > Its their country, isn’t it? We are the foreigners, not they, they know who they are. Shit, its like we invade Texas to make war on the Baptists! > > Hmmmm. No, bad idea. Never mind. Because if we, as a nation, really want to stamp out terrorism in the most effective way possible, then we should equal their ruthlessness (in theory). But because we chose to pass on what could have been a very valuable chance to eradicate many members of the Taliban that were conveniently gathered in one place, it only illustrates my point that we are not in fact the ruthless, indiscriminate killers that some people like to portray our military as. And who knows if there were women or children in attendance? The Taliban aren’t very fond of letting their women outdoors and have a very male-dominated culture. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/96 "2009-07-08T23:56:37Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Because if we, as a nation, really want to stamp out terrorism in the most effective way possible, then we should equal their ruthlessness (in theory). :rolleyes: And of course, slaughtering innocent people couldn’t POSSIBLY enrage people, and draw in more recruits for the terrorists. Nor could it make people less willing to cooperate with us on the matter; never happen. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > But because we chose to pass on what could have been a very valuable chance to eradicate many members of the Taliban that were conveniently gathered in one place, it only illustrates my point that we are not in fact the ruthless, indiscriminate killers that some people like to portray our military as. Or, we simply never cared that much about the Taliban in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/97 "2009-07-09T00:04:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Referring to the failure of Taliban fighters to distinguish themselves from innocent civilians: well, duh. How can we possibly imagine that because a funeral is a Taliban function, that makes it a legitimate military target? Of course their wives and children will be in attendance, how could we expect otherwise? > > Its their country, isn’t it? We are the foreigners, not they, they know who they are. Shit, its like we invade Texas to make war on the Baptists! Actually, the Taliban originated in Pakistan, and many are foreigners. But I think it’s important to distinguish between whether or not the war is justified and whether or not any particular tactic in that war is justified. Frankly, I’m closer to your opinion than I am with most of the others in this thread. I think we were justified in going in after Al Qaeda sites, but we needn’t have tried to go after the Taliban, too, and to launch yet another nation building project that is unlikely to succeed. I know there is a certain blurring of the lines between those two groups, but I just don’t see an end game in trying to route out all or even most of the Taliban. I’m also dead set against our use of predator drones-- they have turned us into The Evil Empire. We need an international effort to get the Afghan economy on some sort of stable course so that the people out in the hinterlands have some economic incentive not to team up with the Taliban or Al Qaeda or whatever Islamist militant group du jour pops up. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/98 "2009-07-09T00:08:24Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Because if we, as a nation, really want to stamp out terrorism in the most effective way possible, then we should equal their ruthlessness (in theory)… No, not even in theory. “Ruthless” is not a positive, its surrenders all value, and a method that generates more enemies than it neutralizes is not “effective”. And we seem to have crossed information streams, here. I was under the impression that we did fire upon the funeral, that it was a “Taliban” funeral was offered as some justification, you appear to believe we abstained. Anybody got the straight, ah, skinny? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/99 "2009-07-09T00:22:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No, not even in theory. “Ruthless” is not a positive, its surrenders all value, and a method that generates more enemies than it neutralizes is not “effective”. > > And we seem to have crossed information streams, here. I was under the impression that we did fire upon the funeral, that it was a “Taliban” funeral was offered as some justification, you appear to believe we abstained. > > Anybody got the straight, ah, skinny? [http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=2884](http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=2884) > **[American Crusader: Taliban Funeral](http://yanksgohome.blogspot.com/2006/09/taliban-funeral.html)** And from a reputable news agency: [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14823099/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14823099/) Maybe we fired upon some other funeral, but this is the specific instance where we did not that I was referring to. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107/100 "2009-07-09T00:28:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: And of course, slaughtering innocent people couldn’t POSSIBLY enrage people, and draw in more recruits for the terrorists. Nor could it make people less willing to cooperate with us on the matter; never happen. Dude, if we were to “equal their ruthlessness”, we’d probably nuke the country, or at the _least_ do our level best to slaughter everyone in it. (Ruthlessness gets more bang for the buck when you have the ability to make lots and lots more ‘bangs’.) After a certain point there won’t be more recruits for terrorists because they’d all be dead. Not to say there probably wouldn’t be negative consequences to this - but then, there are _reasons_ most of us don’t usually get that ruthless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-the-war-in-afghanistan-a-good-war/502107.md?page=6)