# So is this what we can expect if leftists are allowed into Republican events? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2005, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368 "2005-04-02T05:13:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/62 "2005-04-06T13:59:39Z")
I have a problem with this that has no solution. When a left-winger is a shrill irrational jerk, he might turn off people from voting. When there is a shrill right-winger jerk, he and his friends vote, and the rational republicans also vote for the same guy as the shrill jerk. No matter how much republicans are against shrill creeps, they still benefit from their actions. I know, I know, welcome to last week. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/63 "2005-04-06T14:12:50Z")
If I haven’t been more explicit about my opposition to death threats, it shouldn’t be an implicit endorsement of them. Some things are so obviously wrong that condemnation should be understood. And this is where I have perhaps erred with this thread. Not that I think people give assent with their silence, mind, but that I have assumed those that disrupt events might think so, and that it would embolden them further. Sometimes this might be the case. Other times it might not. In any case, I think disruption of speaking events shouldn’t be encouraged, and that people should be reminded that freedom of speech means everybody gets a turn. In this way, we might return to a more civil public sphere. I’ll continue to raise these topics in other threads, where appropriate. This subject is quite important to me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/64 "2005-04-06T14:29:29Z")
I think I agree with everything in that post. The first post seemed to be suggesting (especially in the second-to-last paragraph) that leftists were a greater threat to civil discourse than rightists, and I was just making the point that civil discourse is threatened more by death threats than by salad dressing. But of course both types of threats are bad. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/65 "2005-04-06T14:43:35Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > I have a problem with this that has no solution. When a left-winger is a shrill irrational jerk, he might turn off people from voting. When there is a shrill right-winger jerk, he and his friends vote, and the rational republicans also vote for the same guy as the shrill jerk. No matter how much republicans are against shrill creeps, they still benefit from their actions. The solution, obviously, would be for people of left-of-center leanings to overcome their distaste for shrill irrational jerks and vote anyway. If we’re not doing so – I wonder what it is, that accounts for the difference between how lefties and righties react to such things? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/66 "2005-04-06T15:00:34Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > In this way, we might _return_ to a more civil public sphere. It’s not clear when this was. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/67 "2005-04-06T15:08:26Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > The point that Mr. Moto is trying to make, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that while the left is using shoes, salad dressing, and pies the right is using guns, bombs, and planes. To more effect. You ommitted suspension of civil liberties and concentration camps. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/68 "2005-04-07T02:28:21Z")
And, since I’ve gone out of my way to criticize those on my side of the aisle who’re poisoning the well, I think it would be nice to see some similar criticism of those on the left who do so. Amazingly, they have provided us with yet another example. [Students protesting military recruiters disrupt UC Santa Cruz job fair.](http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2005/April/06/local/stories/01local.htm) > [@](#): > > UCSC administrators were flustered. > > “I wish they would leave,” said Sheila Rodriguez, who oversees student internship programs. > > “They have the right to protest, but it’s a little disruptive,” said Mike Rich, human resources officer for the Bay Area Air Quality Management District. > > “They’re causing chaos,” said Carrie Czaykowska, a senior in business management and economics. “It’s kind of sad.” > > …Two Marine Corps recruiters, dressed in street clothes, declined to comment. > > Some students at the job fair defended them. > > “It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, that has given us the freedom to demonstrate,” said Adiofel Mark Mendoza, a sophomore from San Diego who came in his ROTC cadet uniform. > > Two freshmen from Santa Monica put Marines stickers on their T-shirts to show their support. > > “They are just providing an opportunity,” said Patrick Casey, who grew up in a military family. > > His friend Chris Swanson criticized the protesters. > > “If they want free speech, they should let people speak to the recruiters,” he said. > > Once the doors re-opened, about 500 job-hunting students came in, like Perez, an information systems management major who had waited 45 minutes. > > “It messed up the job fair for a lot of people,” he said. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/69 "2005-04-07T02:43:41Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > And, since I’ve gone out of my way to criticize those on my side of the aisle who’re poisoning the well, I think it would be nice to see some similar criticism of those on the left who do so. > > Amazingly, they have provided us with yet another example. [Students protesting military recruiters disrupt UC Santa Cruz job fair.](http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2005/April/06/local/stories/01local.htm) **Why are you so sure that they’re leftists?** ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/70 "2005-04-07T02:56:37Z")
For that matter, why’s everyone so sure that the shoe thrower was a leftist? There are, after all, plenty of reasons to object to Mr. Perle and his existence- moral reasons, patriotic reasons, law and order reasons, etc. The man is surely scum, disloyal, unAmerican, war-profiteering scum. Whence the impression that one must be leftist to oppose such a wrong-doer? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/71 "2005-04-07T03:41:31Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > **Why are you so sure that they’re leftists?** > [@](#): > > About 75 of them pushed their way in, carrying signs and a banner that said “Military Off Our Campus.” They chanted, “Racist, Sexist, Anti-Gay. Hey, recruiters, go away.” Ya, typical right-wing fair, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/72 "2005-04-07T04:05:07Z")
I agree in general principle that no person should be drowned out by noise, assaulted by foodstuffs, or otherwise interfered with in exercising his right to free speech to a willing audience. But on rereading this thread, there’s one point made in the OP that I think everybody, including myself and **Mr Moto** (because he is a fair and honest man, albeit a conservative Republican, and doesn’t use bait-and-switch on people), missed. The distinction between the incidents described in the OP and Mr. Bush is quite simple, and passed over, inadvertently I am sure, by **Mr Moto** and all who have responded to his topic. Messrs. Perle, Buchanan, and Kristol were private citizens affiliated with the Republican Party who had agreed to speak either in its behalf or in support of its general agenda. This of course gives no license to anyone to douse them with either salad or dessert (or soup or an entrée either for that matter). But it does justify anyone wishing to close such speaking engagements to the party faithful if that is what is desired. Mr. Bush, on the other hand, is President of the United States. He is as much my President and **rjung** ’s and **Left Hand of Dorkness** ’s president as he is **Mr Moto** ’s or **Bricker** ’s. It is not only unconscionable that his speeches _as President_ (as opposed to ones he might make in his capacity as head of the Republican Party, which will from time to time occur) be restricted to Bush supporters, as it would be to grant access to the courts of law only to registered Republicans. And this not merely because of the rights of citizens to equal access to their President, but for **his** sake as well; he needs to know what the popular response to his programs and policies is, not be spoonfed what the party faithful want. He is responsible to all of us; he is functioning as Chief Executive for all of us; and it is his privilege if not his right to know what a cross section of all of us think. Who can misbehave the worst, or who are Bush’s most loyal supporters, is not at issue. It’s the President of the United States, not the President of the Red States, or the President of the Republican Party, who speaks and who needs to gauge how his message is received. If he is sincere in wanting to be a healer and leader of all the citizenry. He should not ignore the **Brutus** es who have supported him; but neither should he ignore the **Reeder** s who have opposed him. For they are all his constituents. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/73 "2005-04-07T04:40:53Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > And, since I’ve gone out of my way to criticize those on my side of the aisle who’re poisoning the well, I think it would be nice to see some similar criticism of those on the left who do so. > > Amazingly, they have provided us with yet another example. [Students protesting military recruiters disrupt UC Santa Cruz job fair.](http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2005/April/06/local/stories/01local.htm) Not an apt example, **Moto.** The students in question aren’t trying to stifle speech as such, they’re trying throw a monkey wrench in the **system.** Just like anti-Vietnam-War protestors who tried to blockade access to Army recruiting stations – and were right to do so, under the circumstances. You could make an argument (not a good one, but an argument) that current circumstances are different; but the principle is the same. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/74 "2005-04-07T04:41:09Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > But on rereading this thread, there’s one point made in the OP that I think everybody, including myself and Mr Moto (because he is a fair and honest man, albeit a conservative Republican, and doesn’t use bait-and-switch on people), missed. Did you miss post #29 on rereading? The bait and switch in the OP wasn’t hidden as well as you imply. **Mr. Moto** could have responded when it was first mentioned. He chose not to. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/75 "2005-04-07T05:34:16Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > It is not only unconscionable that his speeches _as President_ (as opposed to ones he might make in his capacity as head of the Republican Party, which will from time to time occur) be restricted to Bush supporters, as it would be to grant access to the courts of law only to registered Republicans. And this not merely because of the rights of citizens to equal access to their President, but for **his** sake as well; he needs to know what the popular response to his programs and policies is, not be spoonfed what the party faithful want. Of course he **needs** to know, **Polycarp.** But he doesn’t **want** to know, and, more importantly, he doesn’t want anyone else to know either. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/76 "2005-04-07T13:03:18Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Kudos. Not a very common sentiment among some here, it seems. I haven’t followed the SDMB arguments over it. Are there folks defending such behavior? > [@Brutus](#): > > So those one or two useless hecklers get to ruin the event for the all of the supporters of the speaker? People didn’t pay to hear some frigging meatsack scream about whatever nutjob cause they represent (The Bongo Lobby seems to be involved with all of those sorts, granted). People by and large go to speaking events to _hear the speaker speak_. Hard to do that when some idiot thinks their ‘right’ to what they misconstrue as free-speech equals screaming some crap at the top of their lungs for a few minutes. Absolutely. Trying to shout down a speaker that others came to see is indefensible. I have the right to attend the political events I want to, and so does everyone else, and they should not be taken over by screaming idiots. > [@Brutus](#): > > I’ve said it before, and events bear it out: Leftists are the most intolerant people around. If they disagree with a person, they seem to think that mere laws, or even common courtesy, no longer apply to them. Perhaps you don’t realize that the right does it too because you’re less likely to have attended political events with leftist speakers. (I couldn’t hazard a guess as to whether the media cover such issues in a fair way.) But I have attended quite a few lectures and speeches by various leftist figures. On my own campus (Michigan State University), I have yet to attend one that wasn’t disrupted at some point by right-wing hecklers. Our campus has one of the largest student Republican organizations in the nation, or so I’ve read, which means that of course the number of bad apples is higher. The worst was when Howard Dean came to town, since I had the misfortune to be seated next to the assholes. They smuggled in signs and attempted to shout over Mr. Dean, but fortunately they saved it until the end of the program. When I tried to see Noam Chomsky at the University of Michigan (a considerably more liberal campus), I saw no signs of hecklers, or even anyone hanging out outside the facility throwing a temper tantrum (which is _de rigeur_ at MSU’s political events.) It was quite nice. Sad to say, the crowd was so large that I didn’t get a chance to see much of anything, though, so it’s possible there were loudmouthed jerks present. > [@Brutus](#): > > Hey, write it off as overzealous passion or whatever, but anyone would have to admit that the lefties seem to have a penchant for acting like screaming dorks (often literally), when confronted with a speaker or idea they don’t agree with. Why come up with a rational response when you can just throw a shoe or pie at them, eh? Do you really, honestly believe that right-wingers don’t do this? I’d like to attend political events in peace as much as you would, but the right-wingers around here do a reliable job of ensuring that it doesn’t happen. I don’t know if lefties do the same at right-wing events; I should hope they don’t, but I’m not as blindly partisan as you, and so I’ll acknowledge that it seems likely. Still, strange that you have such a blindness to the actions of your own side. > [@PatriotX](#): > > The pies and salad dressing were specifically designed not to be physically harmful. While they do cross the line away from civil discourse to join the ranks of Ms. Coulter, the abominable “Free speech zones” are incredibly much, much more harmful to our country, Liberty and civil discourse than a few whip cream pies and Italian dressing. And that makes it okay? Not only do I think it casts the left in an awful light to have these jerks as our representatives in the media, but also, there is zero chance of it having any kind of positive impact. Assault with salad dressing will not make a politician realize the error of their ways. It’s not an act of speech, and it won’t help illustrate the wrongness of someone’s views to the rest of the world. All it does is make sure that civil political discourse is slightly more difficult in this country. That’s not something I support. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/77 "2005-04-07T13:40:28Z")
That would be a valid criticism, except that I don’t approve of Bush’s actions to restrict access to events, and have explicitly said so. THe closest thing I’ve come to a defense of such is that I can understand the impulse, given these other incidents. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/78 "2005-04-07T15:40:29Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > And, since I’ve gone out of my way to criticize those on my side of the aisle who’re poisoning the well, I think it would be nice to see some similar criticism of those on the left who do so. Err…what have I said, several times, in this very thread? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/79 "2005-04-07T16:08:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not an apt example, **Moto.** The students in question aren’t trying to stifle speech as such, they’re trying throw a monkey wrench in the **system.** Just like anti-Vietnam-War protestors who tried to blockade access to Army recruiting stations – and were right to do so, under the circumstances. You could make an argument (not a good one, but an argument) that current circumstances are different; but the principle is the same. Very apt example. They could have expressed their displeasure with current military policy withour disrupting the fair for other people, or interfering with the recruiters. Your defense of them puts you on the side of the rude and uncivil. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/80 "2005-04-07T16:37:40Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > And that makes it okay? Why in the world would you think I said that? I said that these minor evils (pies et al) do not justify greater evils “free-speech” zones. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368/81 "2005-04-07T17:41:45Z")
[David Horowitz hit by pie at Butler University lecture](http://www.indystar.com/articles/8/235034-8678-009.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-this-what-we-can-expect-if-leftists-are-allowed-into-republican-events/297368.md?page=5)