# So...is Trump a failure of education? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306 "2016-11-10T01:51:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/21 "2016-11-10T12:49:08Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > You can’t be this stupid … > > a huge swathe of the white working class stopped voting in recent elections. Those people did this time and , with other working class voters, didn’t this time vote for a ‘party’. They voted for someone standing for the presidency is all. > > The white working class had to vote (a) republican, (b) for a guy who isn’t a republican but who was standing for the republican party and (c) against vested interests/wall street/1% as represented by HRC/the democratic party - that’s the level of mess the country is in. > > Bernie Sanders was always the right answer for these people, except they weren’t registered. This. And the voters who elected Trump DID remember the most fundamental civics lesson from school: voters have the right to cast a vote according to personal choice, and each vote counts the same as any other vote (ignoring the EC process). Person A’s vote is no more valuable or authentic than Person B’s vote because Person A holds a “better” point of view. Those in my circle of friends who admit to voting for Trump all have college degrees, and at least half of them are successful business owners. They made a choice and I respect and defend that choice, even if I disagree. Sounds corny, but that’s the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/22 "2016-11-10T12:55:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know. I find that many people here on this board struggle with certain aspects of the Constitution that do not fit their preferred outcomes. What’s to be done with them? I’d say we advocate heavily against allowing them to run our country. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/23 "2016-11-10T15:48:40Z")
I think it’s disingenuous to lump the “uneducated” label on voters from any one party. A good many Democrats are just as ignorant as their Republican neighbors. Liberals like to lecture on the dangers of stereotyping, like assuming all Conservatives are uneducated, and then Hillary loses to an idiot. For the record, I think Trump is possibly the stupidest candidate to ever run for President (I don’t count Palin as she was running for VP) and would never vote for him, but Democrats aren’t the pantheon of the educated any more than all Republicans are uneducated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1KOBMg1Y8 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/24 "2016-11-10T18:18:10Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Hey, why not put them in that “basket of deplorable” over there? How’d that work out last time for ya? > > Calling them idiots is not constructive. Acknowledge their issues and call them angry. They are angry; they won’t be angry at you for noticing. > > And don’t be dismissive of why they are angry, even if you think it’s stupid. To them, it’s Important, so you should find out exactly what it is and then see if there’s anything you can do about it. > > Or you can keep losing elections like this one was lost. My point is that there really are some people who are stupid. They have a problem yet they take actions which are just going to make the problem worse. In another thread, I pointed out the difference between respecting people and pandering to them. If you’re pandering to somebody, you agree with them no matter if they’re right or wrong. If you respect somebody, you tell them when they’re making a mistake even if they don’t want to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![greenmario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/97f17d/32.png) [@greenmario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenmario)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/25 "2016-11-10T18:42:27Z")
I think its worth noting that the split between college grads was about 50%. This educational gap is not as big as its made out to be. Trump voters are being categorized as two things 1. Educated ? Obviously racist/misogynist/ect. 2. Uneducated? Mouth-breather. Probably too dumb to know what the Constitution is and can’t be trusted to vote in their own interest. Its also interesting that people only seem to have a problem being uneducated if you’re voting republican. Minorities with a GED get a pass from being the great unwashed as long as they vote your way. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/26 "2016-11-10T18:55:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We’re not talking subtle nuances of constitutional law here. > > We’re talking people who cast a protest vote against “the system”. > > What system? The system of people who are born into power and control the economy and the government. The system of rich and powerful people who put their own interests first and ignore the needs of little people. The system of people like Donald Trump. > > These people just voted for Donald Trump as a protest against people like Donald Trump. I don’t care how you try to explain it, that’s pure stupidity. > > The people who voted for Trump because they want more racism and sexism may be objectively worse but at least they knew what they were doing. They voted for a candidate who’s going to give them what they wanted. > > But the people who voted for Trump to “send a message” are idiots. You forgot to list every single politician in your rant against Donald Trump (you know the other thing you cited “the government”) I don’t think you guys will ever really acknowledge that you HAD the same anti-establishment meme going on in your own Party. Bernie was popular not simply for his wacky ideas but because he represented an anti-establishment base. A lot of those voters probably voted for Trump when he got hosed by the DNC (the establishment) ---
**Author:** ![Totenfeier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@Totenfeier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Totenfeier)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/27 "2016-11-10T21:02:30Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Yes. It’s a failure of education, but it’s wrong to lay the blame on schools. Our patterns of thought are created by the whole of society we live in, and currently society is working hard to make people slaves to evaluating politics in simple “black/white and every issue is a hill to die on”-terms. Parts of formal education does fight against this, but even making half of every school day “civics class” and giving the students perfectly rational role model teachers would be a drop in the ocean compared to the media, both traditional and social, and the politicians themselves promoting the hysterical model of political thought. This. As I’ve mentioned before, I’m in public education, and it’s not just that I’m a drop in the ocean of these student’s lives - a drop of water _in the sun_ would be a more apt metaphor. I’ve been in the public schools since even before computers, when “the Media” was still essentially television for most students. And it was as nearly as difficult then as it is now to get their attention. Every year I drop a little bit farther below their sensory threshold. Media is designed to be attractive, immediately gratifying and ego-supportive (to coin a very unfortunate phrase); that’s its very nature and a significant part of its reason for existing in the first place. Education, OTOH, is a process requiring a great deal of self-discipline, focus, personal dedication (to society as a whole in addition to one’s own noble ambitions, I might add, with no irony at all in the concept “noble”), and an immense amount of sheer dogged hard mental work. The choice couldn’t be clearer, actually - especially when you can see and hear and watch and vicariously experience and play just about damn-all _literally_ anything you want to at any time in the palm of your hand. Was a joke awhile back about the alien who landed the spaceship and saw an Earthling with his phone and asked him what it was. The hoomon replied, with pride, “This device gives me instant access to the collected wisdom of our entire race!” So the alien asks, “What are you viewing now?” And the man replies, “Funny cat videos.” Our kids are in deeper than funny cat videos, I grimly assure you. When it was Little House on the Prairie time, and the only thing you could see outside the window of the one-room schoolhouse was grass, education made more sense as a useful way to spend time (not that kids liked it any better). But the viewport improved over time. When I started, TVs still were cathode-ray thingummys that weighed two tons, and a 19-inch screen was a marvel. Now? I don’t need to tell you about now. To be (cough) brief, what’s the takeaway? What young people learn now, they learn through media and immediate (meaning without authoritative, adult, academic “mediation” of information) experience much more than through serious, logical, deep study, discussion and instruction. We’ve rewired the young brain through technological advance, and thought just _can’t_ be as _long_ now as it used to be. The message must be BIG, SIMPLE, AND OBVIOUS to get through. Tailor-made for demagoguery. The metaphor of the “firehose of data” is way outmoded. Hell, even the sun is too specific. The media is the air the kids breathe everyday. And yes, I know that Trump was “educated” before all this and should know better. I’m seriously worried that today, kids just simply _can’t_ know better. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/28 "2016-11-11T00:13:37Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Our schools ostensibly should be educating students about not only how our government functions, but about the basis for our Constitution and the beliefs and ideals which underlie it and its various amendments. > > Add to that teaching critical thinking skills, natch. > > Is the coming of Trump a strong indication that our schools have failed our nation? > > In other words, it does no good to bitch and moan about the adult Trump supporters and their silly (if not dangerous) beliefs, when we need to be getting to them long before they turn 18. > > Is there something about how social studies and history is taught in this country which leads to people either deriving misconceptions about how our civics work, or not internalizing the ideals built into our Constitution? Why are so many people looking to make excuses for Trump and his followers? They’re the Party of Personal Responsibility after all. If they don’t have something, like education or health care, it’s not the job of the state to force it on them. To the extent that this election was about ignorance, that’s nobody’s fault but theirs, either. They were told that Obama was born in Hawaii. They were alive when George W. Bush lowered taxes on the wealthy and the deficit went up. No one hid these things from them, they chose not to believe them. And now they own the consequences (whatever they may turn out to be) of the choices they made. I don’t know, maybe I shouldn’t be harping on this. I saw a column the other day that said we should allow those we disagree with a face-saving way out of the disagreement. It’s hard to admit you’re wrong. If Trump turns out to make things worse in this country, I don’t want his voters to stick with him just out of pride. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Hey, why not put them in that “basket of deplorable” over there? How’d that work out last time for ya? > > Calling them idiots is not constructive. Acknowledge their issues and call them angry. They are angry; they won’t be angry at you for noticing. > > And don’t be dismissive of why they are angry, even if you think it’s stupid. To them, it’s Important, so you should find out exactly what it is and then see if there’s anything you can do about it. > > Or you can keep losing elections like this one was lost. Trump’s voters are angry. Do you make good decisions when you’re angry? ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/29 "2016-11-11T00:19:55Z")
perhaps we should re-think universal suffrage? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/30 "2016-11-11T01:47:55Z")
> [@Totenfeier](#): > > This. > > As I’ve mentioned before, I’m in public education, and it’s not just that I’m a drop in the ocean of these student’s lives - a drop of water _in the sun_ would be a more apt metaphor. My main concern, which might not have been clear in my OP, was my concern about _moral_ education. We hold these truths to be self-evident. For me at least, learning about what all the different amendments stand for, at their core, was certainly educational and partly informed my moral path. Seemed pretty self-evident to me that race or sex shouldn’t affect which rights (if not priveleges) you get as an American. For others, I guess that message didn’t sink through very much. I don’t know how to teach, how I would teach (note I am an educator too) the core principles of honesty, fairness, and dignity for all human beings to other people. The election result remains shocking to me because it is now painfully obvious that none of those ideals (plus the impartial search for objective truth) are operative in at least half of my fellow Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/31 "2016-11-11T06:54:58Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Jesus christ - when are you people going to wake up. > > Democracy failed the white working class - the political class was too busy feeding from the trough of wall street/vested interests/1%. > > Once more with feeling: your democracy failed way, way too many people. So we ought to give up on democracy because of one lousy election day? Did the Trump voters kill it? This whole fiasco has been upsetting but many of us are not ready to abandon America. We’re going to take a bit of time off, do that yard work now that the weather has cooled and stream a few shows on Netflix. Then get back to work. The next few years will be “educational.” It’s dreadful that so many who didn’t vote for Trump might be hurt. But even those who did may learn something. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/32 "2016-11-11T07:41:53Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > My main concern, which might not have been clear in my OP, was my concern about _moral_ education. I’ve read analyses that say the Trump votes were a backlash against attempts to morally educate people. Do both sides still call it “political correctness”? Apparently, asking people to be nice to others, to respect their wishes, and to treat them as we would wish to be treated is unacceptable and had to be stopped. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/33 "2016-11-11T11:43:08Z")
> [@greenmario](#): > > Its also interesting that people only seem to have a problem being uneducated if you’re voting republican. Minorities with a GED get a pass from being the great unwashed as long as they vote your way. Not from me, they don’t. I’m a white American social scientist who lived in Mexico for years. I am appalled that so many Hispanics and African-Americans voted for Trump or failed to vote at all. But I see now you see you were suggesting something else: that liberals criticize people (except minorities) simply for being uneducated. I don’t think that’s the case. We criticize them for being gullible, but much of our ire is directed at the Repubkican candidates, who pull their strings so well. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/34 "2016-11-11T11:54:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’ve read analyses that say the Trump votes were a backlash against attempts to morally educate people. Do both sides still call it “political correctness”? Apparently, asking people to be nice to others, to respect their wishes, and to treat them as we would wish to be treated is unacceptable and had to be stopped. I don’t think this was much of a factor. There has been pushback against “social justice warriors” and Ferguson-style protests against seemingly racist police incidents, but I think this all played a small role on Election Day. Part of why I think this is because the acceptance of same-sex marriage\* has gone smoothly, even in Toledo and Grand Rapids and Green Bay.\*\* \*Just one part of our culture, but telling nonetheless. Opposition to this is still somewhere in the Republican platform, but that’s just to throw a bone to Evangelicals (and, interestingly, some Blacks and Latinos). I doubt Trump will initiate anything to roll back LGBT rights, though the Senate/House Repubs might be dumb enough to try. \*\*Another reason I think this all played a small role is because, as James Carville once famously put it, “It’s the economy, stupid.” ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/35 "2016-11-11T12:17:37Z")
To put it simply: I think most low-education, young whites don’t mind that a party like the Dems pays specific attention to minorities, as long as it _also_ pays specific attention to _them_. (Which actually it does do, but hasn’t sold this well - inadequate “optics.”) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/36 "2016-11-11T14:50:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > These people just voted for Donald Trump as a protest against people like Donald Trump. I don’t care how you try to explain it, that’s pure stupidity. Perhaps you might consider the possibility that they voted for him **despite** him being Donald Trump? People voted for Clinton and for Trump for a variety of reasons. Step down from the mound of shit on which you’re standing and go and find out why. Every one of them cast their vote for a reason, as did you. > [@](#): > > But the people who voted for Trump to “send a message” are idiots. Try looking in the mirror before you make that assertion. > [@John DiFool](#): > > Is the coming of Trump a strong indication that our schools have failed our nation? How _dare_ those disgusting proles actually think and vote contrary to the wishes of their betters? How dare they use their education to reason as they see fit? _How dare they_? Or perhaps they’re now sufficiently educated to see through the lies the elite and the press have been peddling? Perhaps they need sending to re-education camps? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/37 "2016-11-11T16:48:43Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > How _dare_ those disgusting proles actually think and vote contrary to the wishes of their betters? How dare they use their education to reason as they see fit? _How dare they_? > > Or perhaps they’re now sufficiently educated to see through the lies the elite and the press have been peddling? > > Perhaps they need sending to re-education camps? Trump is evidence that no, they most certainly did NOT see through the lies the press was peddling (since I’m not sure what your other little codeword there is referring to, exactly, I won’t comment on them). “Reasoning” has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/38 "2016-11-11T17:06:24Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > So we ought to give up on democracy because of one lousy election day? Did the Trump voters kill it? Eh? Sheesh … and it’s being posited Trump supporters lack education … ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/39 "2016-11-11T19:29:51Z")
Seems like some some petitio principii in the OP Why do stupid people vote for Trump? Because if you voted for Trump you are stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306/40 "2016-11-11T22:29:48Z")
I’m prepared to admit that my inability to fully process the concept of “President Trump” is a failure of my own imagination. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-is-trump-a-failure-of-education/771306.md?page=3)