# So it turns out that Judas didn't betray Jesus after all... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 6, 2006, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605 "2006-04-06T18:01:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/21 "2006-04-06T22:31:02Z")
People, people, people…are we living in the dark ages here? Judas didn’t “betray” anyone. He was “loyalty-challenged”. ::d&r:: ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/22 "2006-04-06T22:34:54Z")
There are loads of apocryphal Gospels out there, most attributed to Gnostic sects. Look up Eileen Pagels on Amazon to check out some excellent books on the subject, esp. _The Gostic Gospels_. IIRC, early church fathers actually referred to this Gospel by name when discussing some-or-other heretical faction, so folks have known for a while it might be out there somewhere. And, yeah, the idea Judas acted on Jesus’ behest is hardly unheard of. Whether that legend originated in this document I don’t know. Anyhow, if something like the Gospel of Thomas has no impact on the canon, then this Gospel most certainly will not. It’s late in the game and probably chock full of heresies about the dualistic spiritual nature of Christ, etc. Interesting as a bit of early church history, but theologically unimportant to the indoctrinated, in all likelihood. I look forward to seeing this included in something like Pagels. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/23 "2006-04-06T22:49:45Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > (I seem to recall hearing, too, about the Book of Barabbas - the murderer released instead of Jesus, according to the Passion.) IIRC (Dio can certainly correct me if I’m wrong and I bow to his verdict), Barabbas is also seen as a parable, with Pilate essentially asking the crowd “who do you want, Jesus the Son of God, or Jesus the son of mortal man [Hebrew: \*bar abbas \* = _son of a father_]” and they scream “Jesus, the son of a mortal man”, thus denying his divinity. ---
**Author:** ![vl\_mungo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@vl\_mungo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vl_mungo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/24 "2006-04-07T00:11:31Z")
> [@jackelope](#): > > Jorge Luis Borges wrote a story called “Three Versions of Judas” which postulates that Judas, not Jesus, was the actual son of God, and goes into quite a bit of logical depth on the subject. It’s fascinating (if you like Borges, as I most definitely do). > > **Revtim** sent me a copy of it a few years ago, and now I can’t seem to find it, or I’d provide some more detail. Damn, I wanted to mention that. Well, at least I can recommend it too. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/25 "2006-04-07T00:24:53Z")
Cripes, there’s already a Wikipedia article up about this… ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/26 "2006-04-07T00:38:17Z")
I’m thinking this could be the basis for a Dan Brown novel. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/27 "2006-04-07T00:59:57Z")
Doesn’t’ it make one wonder? It is not exactly heresey to say that Christianity was organized around 2nd century A.D., and really got smokin’ around 4th century A.D., what with Emperor Constantine and all. So. It’s 175 A.D. There’s a lot of parchment flying around. Me, I’d love to know who was basically playing the part of Jackie Onassis. Who was editing the Big Book ? Who was deciding which “chapters” (Gospels) to accept as gospel and which ones were thrown by the wayside, never to be heard of again until people got a taste for books that talk about lost Gospels, or [The Q Gospel](http://www.gotquestions.org/Q-Gospel.html). Was it by committee? Royal Fiat? Who chose the four writings that have become dominant, and were there perhaps other writings that were equally eloquent but somehow weren’t used? Not to overly hijack this into pure theological debate, but as a non-student of scriptures who just re-read the posts in here, can I ask: Why would Jesus ask Judas to kill him, or why would Jesus construct the scenario that culminated with his death? Is the idea that Jesus created the situation, that Judas was bribed with the infamous 30 pieces of silver and did what he did, all according to a plan set into motion by Jesus himself? To what end? Why would Jesus have gone through such machinations, when He knew that He would die on the cross regardless of what transpired beforehand? Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/28 "2006-04-07T01:03:48Z")
Just found [this](http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/006/7.26.html). Kinda answers my question just posed. Interesting stuff… ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/29 "2006-04-07T02:41:34Z")
Note that there are some known issues in some Gnostic writings that indicate the writers had little direct knowledge of Jesus’ times and life. E.g., [Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 840](http://www.gospels.net/translations/poxy840translation.html) refers to temple practices that could not possibly be true. Especially the part of pigs wallowing in the purification fountain. There have been a host of people over the centuries who have put forth the notion that Judas knew Jesus wouldn’t really die and that Judas wanted to “speed things up” by turning Jesus over to the authorities. Judas’ stature in some Eastern or extinct branches is less than dishonorable. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/30 "2006-04-07T02:55:55Z")
Yeesh. Missed **Dio’s** much better post, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/31 "2006-04-07T03:29:30Z")
Thirding **jackelope** ’s recommendation. An interesting contrast between Judas choosing to condemn his own immortal soul to hell for eternity vs. Jesus having a bad weekend. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/32 "2006-04-07T03:41:30Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > It’s always been my understanding that 30 pieces of silver > > 1- wasn’t a lot of money (at least not enough to convince you to betray somebody you loved) > 2- was a requirement to accept when turning basically “state’s evidence” > > and that Judas did not betray Christ for the money but for personal reasons. The 30 pieces of silver is a reference to Zechariah 11:13 (even though matthew mistakenly attributes it to Jeremiah). In Zechariah it refers to a “good shepherd” who is betrayed and sold for 30 pieces of silver (the price of a slave). Matthew read the story as a Messianic prophecy and included it in his version of the Judas betrayal. It’s also where he got the “Potter’s Field” reference. > [@](#): > > IIRC (Dio can certainly correct me if I’m wrong and I bow to his verdict), Barabbas is also seen as a parable, with Pilate essentially asking the crowd “who do you want, Jesus the Son of God, or Jesus the son of mortal man [Hebrew: \*bar abbas \* = _son of a father_]” and they scream “Jesus, the son of a mortal man”, thus denying his divinity. This is a common literary interpretation of the Barabbas story, although literalists would, of course, disagree that Mark was only being symbolic. One of the reasons many modern scholars see the story as parabolic (besides the fact that, as you pointed out, Barabbas seems to be a symbolic name) is that there is no corroboration outside of Mark for any Roman tradition of releasing a prisoner at Passover. Pliny wrote that executions could sometimes be _delayed_ until after Passover but does not say that anyone was ever just let off scott free and it’s exceedingly unlikely that an insurgent (and crucifixion was only used in Palestine for crimes of sedition, insurgency or similar crimes against the state) would ever be let go. For the Romans, Palestinian insurgents were perceived in much the same way as the US now perceives the insurgents in Iraq- i.e. as terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Tortuga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c4cdca/32.png) [@Tortuga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tortuga)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/33 "2006-04-07T09:35:22Z")
Fresh from a Christopher Moore book signing, I’d like to recommend[Lamb](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0380813815/102-1954659-0563307?v=glance&n=283155)–short on facts, long on entertainment, as much of this biblical “debate” is. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/34 "2006-04-07T10:40:28Z")
> [@the Encyclopedia Britannica](#): > > The Cainites are sometimes called libertine Gnostics for believing that true perfection, and hence salvation, comes only by breaking all the laws of the Old Testament. The violation of biblical prescriptions was, therefore, a religious duty. Because it was difficult to violate all biblical laws during a single lifetime, the Cainites did not look for salvation in the created world but rather escape from it. :eek: Whoa, dudes. I’m about as un-Biblical as it gets, but even _I_ believe in several of the Commandments. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/35 "2006-04-07T15:44:20Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > :eek: Whoa, dudes. I’m about as un-Biblical as it gets, but even _I_ believe in several of the Commandments. Well, sure, the don’t covet your neighbor’s donkey and “don’t hit your mama” ones are okay, but if God didn’t want us bearing false witness then why did he create message boards? I wonder if Rasputin’s cult was inspired by the Cainites. He had the whole “to be forgiven you must sin… so let’s do it in the butler’s pantry of the imperial yacht!” philosophy going on. Cainite down south is used (though admittedly very obscurely) for a white supremacist belief that blacks and other “inferior races” (i.e. anybody non WASP) are descendants of Cain and by extension of Satan (who they associate with the serpent in the garden). Note: this is far far far far far from a mainstream philosophy even in the rural Deep South, but it is one that I’ve heard. (At one point the leader of the Cainite white supremacist sect who is HQd in rural Tennessee was dating Loretta Lynn.) ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/36 "2006-04-07T16:07:36Z")
I was talking about this last night to a friend, an older, conservative, active Catholic fella. He hadn’t read yesterday’s articles yet, but this was his immediate response: “Well, sure I would expect that the Gospel of Judas would pretty much say that Judas was the good guy doing Jesus’ will, and not betraying him. If I was writing a gospel according to me, I’d make damn sure I came out looking pretty good in it” ---
**Author:** ![Salem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Salem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salem)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/37 "2006-04-07T16:29:12Z")
I don’t see this as anything new at all. Having listened to the musical “Jesus Christ Superstar” approximately fourthousandfiftytwohundred times as a kid, that’s pretty much the message contained. Jesus knew that Judas would betray him and that Peter would deny him three times and tol all of the apostles this. Judas fought it initially and finally accepted his fate as to the role he would play in Jesus’ life and death, feeling that he was fulfilling the will of God and Jesus and that he had no choice morally but to take the fall, so to speak. (Much like Jesus’ words in the Garden of Gesthamane. Not that I was there, but from what I hear.) Now, go down to your basement, put the record on, grab your sister and divvy up the singing parts and you will see just how right I am. For true effect, take the part of Judas and you’ll feel his angst. I’m kiind on one hand, but in all serousness, if you get into it as I did as a kid, you really feel and hear the exact sentiment expressed in the OP in the music. Ok, now I know that Andrew Lloyd Weber may not be the foremost Biblical expert, but much of that musical is taken from New Testament stories and passages. ---
**Author:** ![Salem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Salem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salem)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/38 "2006-04-07T16:33:54Z")
> [@Salem](#): > > I’m **kiind** on one hand, but in all serousness, i Yes, I’m an editor in real life, why do you ask??? Ahem… That would be **kidding**. The rest of the typos you can figure out and lash me for my carelessness and lack of previewing (I’m off duty today, I swear!), but that one was kind of hard to decipher, as in, it made no sense. I’ll just slink off into the typo corner now. :o ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/39 "2006-04-07T16:49:54Z")
> [@Salem](#): > > I don’t see this as anything new at all. Having listened to the musical “Jesus Christ Superstar” approximately fourthousandfiftytwohundred times as a kid, that’s pretty much the message contained. Jesus knew that Judas would betray him and that Peter would deny him three times and tol all of the apostles this. Judas fought it initially and finally accepted his fate as to the role he would play in Jesus’ life and death, feeling that he was fulfilling the will of God and Jesus and that he had no choice morally but to take the fall, so to speak. (Much like Jesus’ words in the Garden of Gesthamane. Not that I was there, but from what I hear.) > > Now, go down to your basement, put the record on, grab your sister and divvy up the singing parts and you will see just how right I am. For true effect, take the part of Judas and you’ll feel his angst. I’m kiind on one hand, but in all serousness, if you get into it as I did as a kid, you really feel and hear the exact sentiment expressed in the OP in the music. Ok, now I know that Andrew Lloyd Weber may not be the foremost Biblical expert, but much of that musical is taken from New Testament stories and passages. Oddly enough, when I read the news story yesterday, this was EXACTLY what i said to myself. And yeah, I know the music pretty well too. I spend most of the last couple weeks before easter every year with those 2 discs in the car on regular rotation. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605/40 "2006-04-07T19:45:51Z")
> [@Salem](#): > > I don’t see this as anything new at all. Having listened to the musical “Jesus Christ Superstar” approximately fourthousandfiftytwohundred times as a kid, that’s pretty much the message contained. It was also the message in _Jesus of Nazareth_, the (outstanding- and I’m an atheist) 1970s Zeffirelli miniseries in which Ian McShane (who manages not to say “c\*cksucker” one time even though he had to be prepping for Swearengen even then) plays Judas. Zeffirelli’s Judas (or perhaps Anthony Burgess’s- he wrote the screenplay) is essentially trying to force Jesus’s hand in bringing about his kingdom when he betrays him- he will surely make his power known at his trial. The worst Judas I’ve ever seen was at a Passion Play in Eureka Springs Arkansas (home of the world’s largest [milk carton Jesus](http://www.mischel.com/diary/2003/06/cozark.jpg)). That Judas, on a prerecorded soundtrack, had an incredible soundalike resemblance to Ming the Merciless from the late lamented Flash Gordon Saturday cartoons. So did the priests, for that matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-it-turns-out-that-judas-didnt-betray-jesus-after-all/351605.md?page=3)