# So it's fucking war then **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021 "2003-03-17T16:07:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/21 "2003-03-17T17:41:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*I don’t think it will be nearly as bad as people think. We’ll squish Saddam like an ant, and the fight won’t last longer then 2 weeks. I know our boys will do the best they can to avoid civilians, and that’s all we can hope for. \*\* Just because it’s easy doesn’t mean it’s not freaking wrong. Is it okay for me to beat you up as long as I don’t get blood on the carpet? Fuck man, the world really has gone crazy. Right and wrong is once again decided by who has the most force, and it’s okay to do whatever the hell you want as long as you have a big enough military to do it quickly. Thats really great. I’m glad to be a part of civilization. ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/22 "2003-03-17T17:43:29Z")
I had a bizare thought. Do you suppose it was Al Qaeda that forged the documents in order to get the United States to go to war against Iraq in order to destabalise the country and give them an oppening to install an Islamic regiem. Nah. Too far fetched. I think they are better at forging from all accounts too. I am more than a little afraid that is what will happen however. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/23 "2003-03-17T17:44:08Z")
**cuauhtemoc** , you’ve got a lot of indignation being built up, but you’re not grasping the U.S. administration’s position by a long shot. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cuauhtemoc \* > **Yeah, you’re right. It’s only been twelve years since he’s attacked another country. And his military apparatus is completely decimated, but that’s no reason to believe he won’t rise up and invade us any day now. This is Bizzarro World, where anything can happen! :rolleyes:** The threat of military invasion isn’t the threat that concerns. It’s the threat of continued development of WMD, the development of chemical and biological agents and the threat of passing off materiel already developed to rogue agents. > [@](#): > > **Thirty to forty-five days to disarm doesn’t sound like a “non-starter” to me. Unless you’re really out for blood and will settle for nothing less, that is.** Why would 30 to 45 days more (without an ultimatum, or the French won’t play) be meaningful when **Saddam has had 12 years and has failed to meet the obligations imposed upon him by the world community because of his acts of naked aggression in the past**? \*\* > [@](#): > > An able, intelligent team of statesmen could have gotten that resolution. Too bad we don’t have one working for us.\*\* In order to reach diplomatic resolution of disputes, you have to have **willing, honest statesmen on both sides** who have the capability to **back up their words with actions**. Even if the Iraqi ambassador and diplomatic corps could come to a reasonable solution, there is no evidence tht Saddam would comply, and he’s running the show. He’s had 12 years to do the right thing and he has spent those 12 years being defiant, obstinate and proceeding along his merry way without any regard to the dictates or will of anyone other than himself. He’s a madman. He’s going to either be captured or killed. He is going to cause his country to be ripped to shreds for the second time in a little over a decade. That’s reality. He’s either unwilling or mentally unable to accept that and do what’s necessary to stop it. That’s not the fault of American or British or UN aggression or the oppression of sanctions or a burning Islamic fervor or anything else that resides outside of his cranium. The ball was in Saddam’s court for a long time. When it comes down to it, none of this is about diplomacy or the UN or the French, it’s about Saddam. He had the power to make decisions and the proper decisions could have allowed us all to avoid war. He failed. Period. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/24 "2003-03-17T18:06:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cuauhtemoc \* > **Yeah, you’re right. It’s only been twelve years since he’s attacked another country. And his military apparatus is completely decimated, but that’s no reason to believe he won’t rise up and invade us any day now. This is Bizzarro World, where anything can happen! :rolleyes:** The problem isn’t him invading us, catch up on current events please. \*\* > [@](#): > > Thirty to forty-five days to disarm doesn’t sound like a “non-starter” to me. Unless you’re really out for blood and will settle for nothing less, that is. An able, intelligent team of statesmen could have gotten that resolution. Too bad we don’t have one working for us. \*\* 12 years, 'nuff said. \*\* > [@](#): > > It was fucked up diplomatically from the day Bush started down the “You’re either with us or against us” road. What he and his team has been practicing cannot properly be called “diplomacy”. More like “asscovering”, as you so astutely picked up on.\*\* I’ll be the first to say that IMO Bush is a complete moron, has totally mishandled the situation and his diplomacy is non existant at best. That said, I still think taking out Saddam is the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/25 "2003-03-17T18:14:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > **Out of interest, just what is the acceptable figure to you for civilian fatalities. Come on, give us a nice round number: 100; 1000; 10,000; more even?** What is the point of this question? I think zero is a nice round number, but in place of that I would say as little as possible. How about you? \*\* > [@](#): > > And also out of interest, if it were you and yours that were amongst the casualties, just what number of deaths would then be “all we can hope for”? \*\* Well some of mine are in the gulf as we speak, and it does nothing to change my response above. Do you propose we only engage in conflicts were we can guarantee not a single civilian will be killed? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/26 "2003-03-17T18:50:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > Do you propose we only engage in conflicts were we can guarantee not a single civilian will be killed? \*\* No, I propose that we don’t engage in conflicts at all, unless someone attacks our territory. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/27 "2003-03-17T19:24:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tlw \* > **The threat of military invasion isn’t the threat that concerns. It’s the threat of continued development of WMD, the development of chemical and biological agents and the threat of passing off materiel already developed to rogue agents.** My comment about invasion was in response to **World Eater** ’s “Ha!” about the idea of containment. I observe that Saddam used to be a military threat, with the sixth largest army in the world and all that, but now he’s militarily weak and essentially a sitting duck. By my definition, he’s “contained”. Rogue agents? Is this part of the “Saddam bin Laden” phenomenon? Where the administration sells the invasion of Iraq as part of the War on Terror? Despite the lack of evidence that Saddam Hussein is the least bit cozy with al Qaeda? I admit the remote possibility that Saddam’s anthrax or nerve gas could end up in terrorist hands. Does that mean we should invade somebody every time there’s a remote possibility of something bad happening? Oh yeah, I forgot - _preemption_. Besides, what if post-invasion Iraq descends into anarchy, and these fearsome weapons go missing? If you can engage in wild speculation, so can I. > [@](#): > > **Why would 30 to 45 days more (without an ultimatum, or the French won’t play) be meaningful when Saddam has had 12 years and has failed to meet the obligations imposed upon him by the world community because of his acts of naked aggression in the past**? Even if I accepted that military force was necessary, couldn’t I just turn that logic right around? _We’ve waited 12 years! What’s another measly 45 days?_ Whatever. Pro-war, anti-war, I think we agree that the best-case scenario is a minimum of casualties on both sides and a quick end. I just wish it hadn’t come to this. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/28 "2003-03-17T19:34:17Z")
> [@](#): > > No, I propose that we don’t engage in conflicts at all, unless someone attacks our territory. FYI, someone already attacked our territory. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/29 "2003-03-17T19:34:46Z")
By the way, it will go like this. - War no longer then 3 weeks - No chems used at all by Iraq - Israel not provoked - No bloody urban warefare Anyone think it will go differently? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/30 "2003-03-17T19:39:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MLS \* > \*\*FYI, someone already attacked our territory. \*\* Well it wasn’t Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/31 "2003-03-17T19:40:03Z")
Why would Hussein hold back from chemical weapons? Why would there be no urban warfare? He has nothing to lose now, and while much of his military will crumble, past history has shown that you don’t have to control a sophisticated military steamroller to inflict nasty casualties. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/32 "2003-03-17T19:43:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MLS \* > \*\*FYI, someone already attacked our territory. \*\* heh. I was gonna add a disclaimer, but some deranged hopeful part of me thought that wouldn’t be neccesary. If you are retaliating for an attack on your territory, please direct your retaliation to the _same people that attacked you_. Being attacked doesn’t mean you suddenly get a free pass to make all the war you want on anyone that bugs you or has something you want. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/33 "2003-03-17T19:44:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MLS \* > \*\*FYI, someone already attacked our territory. \*\* Then why don’t we go attack _them_??? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/34 "2003-03-17T19:50:55Z")
Because they don’t have the world’s second-largest supply of oil. Strip away the excuses, strip away the justifications, and this is all about getting control of the Iraqi oil fields and securing them for the good ol’ U.S. of A. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/35 "2003-03-17T19:51:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crusoe \* > \*\*Why would Hussein hold back from chemical weapons? Why would there be no urban warfare? He has nothing to lose now, and while much of his military will crumble, past history has shown that you don’t have to control a sophisticated military steamroller to inflict nasty casualties. \*\* Personally I don’t think he has the capability to launch chemical weapons. As far as bloody urban combat, I think his troops are going to fold within 24 hours. He might light up a few oil wells, but that will be about it. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/36 "2003-03-17T20:09:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Because they don’t have the world’s second-largest supply of oil. > > Strip away the excuses, strip away the justifications, and this is all about getting control of the Iraqi oil fields and securing them for the good ol’ U.S. of A. \*\* Don’t forget to mention those billion dollar oil contracts that Russia and France are trying to ink with Saddam, and the 9 billion Iraq owes Russia for some arms. Everyones hands are dirty. ---
**Author:** ![Thomas\_Stearns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Thomas\_Stearns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thomas_Stearns)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/37 "2003-03-17T20:18:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*Out of interest, just what is the acceptable figure to you for civilian fatalities. Come on, give us a nice round number: 100; 1000; 10,000; more even? > > And also out of interest, if it were you and yours that were amongst the casualties, just what number of deaths would then be “all we can hope for”? \*\* I’m glad this war is at least bringing out all the drama queens. So let me turn this question back on you. “Out of interest, just what is the acceptable figure to you for civilian fatalities. Come on, give us a nice round number: 100; 1000; 10,000; more even?” Because those numbers seem to be right for the people dying under Sadaam’s regime. That’s right folks there are alot of people dying in Iraq due to Sadaam’s actions and how does that quote go? “The only thing nessecary for evil to triumph is for the Good to do nothing”. The Northern Iraqis and a growing number of southern iraqis are pleading with the US to invade. They understand he cost of war but most of them are willing to pay it if they can see a change of government. What about the Iraqi exiles? I guess alot of people are able to dismiss that in their minds because it provides much cognitive dissonance to them when they think of the US doing good things. They can only think of us going into Iraq because we’re on some power trip and we love oil. Oh and I know there are plenty of human rights violations going on all over the world, but look how hard it was for us to do something here. Find whatever way you can dismiss whatever i’m saying but I know Bush is doing damn fine job. He saw something that needed to be done and made sure it was going to happen. I understand that he UN is mad that they can’t swing us around like a hammer anymore, but we’ll be back to do all the dirty work for them. As sad as I am to say this, sometimes the US does things that do good for other people. I think war sucks too but living a slow-death under Sadaam I think equates to being buried alive. Unless I’m misinformed and the Iraqi people are really living underground in plush, futuristic, luxory apartments. As unpopular as it is to love this country I gotta go against the masses and say that I’m glad we are’nt pro-longing this whole thing anoher 12 years. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/38 "2003-03-17T20:23:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Next time, if you don’t mind, quote the person as to what he actually said. I watched Powell’s news conference just a few minutes ago and every time he uttered the phrase you misquoted, he said, and said quite clearly, “window is closing.” \*\* Goodness gracious, **Monty** old chap. What on earth was the point of that post? To win friends and influence people? To give people the impression that you’re a hyperpedantic ass? How’s about you express an opinion, for or against the sentiments of the OP, rather than picking on irrelevant minutae (I C&Ped from a respected news source - ain’t my fault if they get it wrong). In other news: bite me. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/39 "2003-03-17T21:07:19Z")
> [@](#): > > As unpopular as it is to love this country I gotta go against the masses and say that I’m glad we are’nt pro-longing this whole thing anoher 12 years. Screw you and everybody else that equates opposition to the war with hating America. I’m so fucking tired of hearing this bullshit! I oppose the war because I love this country and I want us to do the right thing. My love for this country is the closest thing to religion I have. If you loved this country half as much as you claim to you would be as outraged as I am over the trampling of the Constitution, the smearing of our good name, the fact that we are about to become an agressor nation which goes against all of the best parts of our national tradition, the fact that we are about to be in violation of the U.N charter and become an international outlaw, and the fact that real threats to the safety and well being of this country are being ignored! You should be ashamed of yourself for claiming to love this country while advocating a position antithetical to all of its ideals. Why do you hate America so much? My hands are shaking so hardd in anger I can barely type. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/40 "2003-03-17T21:08:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*By the way, it will go like this. > > - War no longer then 3 weeks > - No chems used at all by Iraq > - Israel not provoked > - No bloody urban warefare > > Anyone think it will go differently? \*\* You’re probably right for the first one. I _hope_ you’re right on the other 3. I just think that old Saddam may think he has nothing to lose and play everything he has left in one big gamble and/or fit of rage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021.md?page=3)