# So it's fucking war then **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021 "2003-03-17T16:07:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/61 "2003-03-18T02:27:16Z")
Lesseee…I make a polite request and you respond to it with “bite me.” & that makes me the abrasive one? What an ass. Anyhooo…as to your OP: > [@](#): > > “The diplomatic window has been closed” - like it was ever truly open. This war was always going to happen. Actually, the administration said often and loud that they’d like for Iraq to live up to its obligations and thereby avoid the “serious consequences” in UNSR 1441. > [@](#): > > Fuck GWB and his unelected, blinkered, warmongering ‘advisers’. That’s kind of one-sided, isn’t it, especially with the disingenuous (sp?) use of quotes? I didn’t notice any of them being blinkered. BTW, none of the advisors is in an elected position–kind of like Clinton’s advisors weren’t nor Ford’s nor…nor…nor… > [@](#): > > Fuck 'em for marginalising the UN. The UN marginalized itself a long time ago. Bush and co. gave them plenty of opportunity to rectify that. > [@](#): > > Fuck their ropy and shambolic “evidence”. > > Fuck Chirac for helping to close that window by being an obstinate fuckwit. > > Fuck Blair for ignoring the people who pay his salary. > > Fuck OBL and his minions for the senseless slaughter that gave this horrible situation a lever. > > Fuck Saddam Hussein for existing. Fuck the people who helped him into power. (Psst. Dude. Go into exile. Now.) > > All we can do now is hope it’s short and concise; that civilian casualties are minimal; that allied and Iraqi forces casualties are small; that the repercussions and recruitment to Islamist terrorism aren’t as huge as they might be; that the humanitarian side-effects are minimised; that Hussein doesn’t indeed have hidden WMD that he’ll unleash; that Israel isn’t attacked; that Israel doesn’t retaliate if attacked; that a post-Saddam Iraq will be a better place for the Iraqi people. I, also, hope this is short and limited. Hussein could’ve avoided it all a long time ago. He could’ve avoided it this morning. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/62 "2003-03-18T02:31:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MLS \* > **Well, we already did, and it turned out that most of the people in Afghanistan are better off than they were before. Not where anyone wants them to be by a long shot, but better. At least children are allowed to fly kites and sing songs. People are not beaten in the street for their clothing. As far as I know they are no longer dragging women into soccer fields to be shot. Do you recall the welcome that the US got upon entering?** > > If you’re so into democracy, let’s have a vote. We’ll have everyone in the country raise their hand if they want the United States of America to stage a violent miltary invasion and occupy their country for an unspecified amount of time and with unspecified plans for the future- which certain include destroying and replaceing your countries culture and may well include just doleing the thing out to private companies. If the majority of the country vote ‘yes’, then we do it. If not, we stay home and stop patting ourselves on the back for ‘liberating’ these people by anhilliating their nation (I won’t even get into how different the situations in Afghanistan and Iraq are). > > \*\*I don’t want to go through another attack like 9/11. If SH doesn’t use the WMD himself he will sell them (if he hasn’t already) to someone else. Better to stop it first. \*\* > > Heh. Kinda hard to sell what you don’t have. There has been no credible evidence that Saddam has WMD that are capable of harming the US, much less any way to get them anywhere near us. But there has been a lot of half-assed “evidence”. If it’s so obvious that Saddam is hiding all kinds of evil, why do they keep presenting us so many jokes? > > \*\*BTW, does anyone here remember Chamberlin? Great Britain and Germany pre-WWII? There was big-time support for appeasement then until it was too late. Never again. \*\* Well Godwin be darned, does anyone here remember a little group of people callled the Nazis, who thought it’d be a swell idea to invade their neighbors? You know…the ones who wanted to take over the world? Well that was only sixty-odd years ago, and it sure as hell could happen today, and it seems like United States is best candidate for evil state hell-bent on making unprovoked attacks for dubious reasons. We’re stepping out of bounds here. We’re starting to leave the circle of nations that consider themselves civilized. We’re the ones that are stepping out of line here, and I’d hate to see our nation be the one in the wrong. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/63 "2003-03-18T04:27:30Z")
“If you’re so into democracy, let’s have a vote.” Oh, silly me. I forgot – they DID have an election in Iraq and SH won with, what was it, 99 or 100% of the vote? That was obviously a clean and fairly conducted election without coersion. You might also want to check out this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=170505](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=170505) for a link to an Iraqi speaking to a peace activist. I think you are way out of line comparing the U.S. to Nazi Germany, but somehow I doubt I will ever convince you of that. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/64 "2003-03-18T12:06:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\* > Actually, the administration said often and loud that they’d like for Iraq to live up to its obligations and thereby avoid the “serious consequences” in UNSR 1441. > > The UN marginalized itself a long time ago. Bush and co. gave them plenty of opportunity to rectify that. > > I, also, hope this is short and limited. Hussein could’ve avoided it all a long time ago. He could’ve avoided it this morning. \*\* Sorry Monty that is complete bullshit, I can’t find a link to the transcript of yesterday speech (I am starting to suspect that google is no friend of mine). Anyway, the impression the rest of the world has is that all this U.N. deal was something to make Blair feel all warm and fuzzy. Bush never cared for a second resolution, he said so yesterday. I am waiting for Elucidator’s analysis of that little excercise in public opinion manipulation (don’t dissapoint me pal), I tell you living tens of thousands of kilometers away from everything makes you see the world in a different way so in many part of that speech we actually laugh; poor argumentation, mindless rethoric and exacerbated patriotism, Bush reminded me of that other great american called Tom Green. The most interesting part of the speech is the analysis that afterwards made an specialist by the name of Carlos Perez Llana, he made a good argument why many countries oppose to the war: He was asked if he considered that the anti-war position of Mexico, Chile and in our humble way Argentina was correct considering that Uncle Sam is in the same hemisphere and that he usually isn’t that great a friend. He said that we are all weak countries and to accept this policy no matter the pressure and bribery is dangerous for our future. After all you never know when someone will make a move against you. Interesting because, at least for me, it shed a new light in France, turkey, etc, position. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/65 "2003-03-18T12:37:35Z")
**monty** how about just saying you made a mistake and stop being a dick. War it is and I feel like Peter Finch in _Network_ I’M MAD AS HELL AND I’M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE. But what am I to do? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/66 "2003-03-18T12:45:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Don’t forget to mention those billion dollar oil contracts that Russia and France are trying to ink with Saddam, and the 9 billion Iraq owes Russia for some arms. > > Everyones hands are dirty. Well, on both sides, it must be noted that its not Russia, China, France or America that has contracts, but Oil companies from those countries. Even though there might be contracts, TotalElf dosen’t expect their contracts to be honoured by a US sponsored government. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/67 "2003-03-18T12:47:15Z")
[Transcript](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/17/sprj.irq.bush.transcript/). ( **Estilicon** , try CNN for topical stuff.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/68 "2003-03-18T16:32:13Z")
'Cause yojimobo, I didn’t. Estilicon: You never fail to disappoint. When it comes to America and what she does, do you have a template or do you consider what to say? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/69 "2003-03-18T16:38:49Z")
Yes, **Monty** , you did. You accused **jjimm** of inaccurately quoting Colin Powell, when he was actually quoting Ari Fleischer quite accurately. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/70 "2003-03-18T16:43:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > 'Cause yojimobo, I didn’t. _sigh_ You said he misquoted Powell > [@](#): > > Next time, if you don’t mind, quote the person as to what he actually said. I watched **Powell’s** news conference just a few minutes ago and every time he uttered the phrase you misquoted, he said, and said quite clearly, “window is closing.” **jimm** wasn’t quoting Powell that was **your** mistake. In the article that is linked to in the OP under the picture of Pres. Bush it says “The White House says the diplomatic window has closed” Nowere in the OP did **jjimm** mention Powell. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/71 "2003-03-18T17:01:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Well, on both sides, it must be noted that its not Russia, China, France or America that has contracts, but Oil companies from those countries. > > Even though there might be contracts, TotalElf dosen’t expect their contracts to be honoured by a US sponsored government. \*\* Good point. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/72 "2003-03-18T17:19:36Z")
**Montypoos** : [Google news search for the exact phrase I copied and pasted, which was said by Ari Fleischer, not Colin Powell](http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=The+diplomatic+window+has+been+closed&sa=N&tab=wn&meta=). ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/73 "2003-03-18T18:04:44Z")
I am reminded of a particular line from a film which I desperately hope does not become any more relevant: **"It’s a huge shit sandwich and we’re all gonna have to take a bite."** Shall we pass it clockwise, or counterclockwise? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/74 "2003-03-18T18:04:45Z")
Actually, jjimm; I did check the link you provided. The only place the phrase you quoted appeared was beneath a photo on the page. Fleisher’s name didn’t appear there, unless I missed it in the link. So, I amend my request to: Would you mind actually linking to what you quoted, and mentioning whom you’re quoting, so your reader doesn’t have to guess about it? The silliness here has been provided by your asinine reaction to a mild request. Also, I’m not Montypoos. Although this is the Pit, your reaction was uncalled for. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/75 "2003-03-18T18:12:02Z")
**Monty** , the page has been update since **jjimm** posted the link (as you can tell if you look at the very top of the article: “Last Updated: Tuesday, 18 March, 2003, 00:37 GMT” When originally posted, the story quoted Mr. Fleischer directly. As you would’ve known had you _actually read the link_ when it was posted. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/76 "2003-03-18T18:15:08Z")
Thats a mighty fine shovel you have there, Monty. Is it good for digging? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/77 "2003-03-18T18:19:52Z")
Hey, Twist. I’m curious is all. Now, all of a sudden, I’m getting, “Well, it said something different then.” If I missed it, I missed it and apologies all around. So far, nobody’s provided proof. Freaking prove it, is all I ask. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/78 "2003-03-18T18:28:47Z")
Thank you, **xenophon41**. This is quite exasperating. **Monty** , on my honour, this is the quote I copied off the very article, which was subsequently updated. The story has been updated since I posted it. I therefore can’t link to what I’m quoting because _it isn’t feckin there any more_. However, I’ve found the _exact same quote for you_ several times since, and linked to it. Furthermore I have at least one witness who saw the quote in its original context. I took the tone of your post: > [@](#): > > Next time, if you don’t mind, quote the person as to what he actually said. I watched Powell’s news conference just a few minutes ago and every time he uttered the phrase you misquoted, he said, and said quite clearly, “window is closing.” as quite unnecessarily abrasive - hence my abrasive reaction to it. You took your tone to be “mild” - perhaps if you’d have called me **jjimmypoos** I might have thought it was. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/79 "2003-03-18T18:43:10Z")
Hah! Okay, jjimm. Next time I’ll do the websearch and I won’t forget to call you jimmypoo or something like it. Ah, the Pit’s turning into such a nice place of late. p.s. I must admit, though, that I just can’t stand to listen to Fleischer. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021/80 "2003-03-18T19:53:36Z")
I can sympathize with that, **Monty** –I think Ari got the job as press secretary because he’s one of the few folks on the planet who can make GWB look relatively less smug and arrogant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-its-fucking-war-then/162021.md?page=5)