# So, just what was Jesus' message? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2002, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212 "2002-04-29T02:41:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Tinker\_Grey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tinker_grey/32/8136_2.png) [@Tinker\_Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinker_Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/262 "2002-05-15T15:51:55Z")
**Tris** [aside] Alvin Plantinga in God, Freedom, and Evil calls counter theology _a_theology. But, I think _counter-theology_ works reasonably well. [/aside] Tinker ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/263 "2002-05-15T17:14:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Libertarian, can you at least see that there is a difference between “ridiculing” your religion, and ridiculing you for your faith in that religion? I’m trying, Czar, but I admit that it’s difficult. I think I’m wired more like Peter, even though I think more like John. But no matter whether I see the difference or not, I should never make any judgment about your motives. I don’t (and can’t) know them. Perhaps if you could be just a tad more gentle for a spell, I could ease into it better. But that’s not a request, just a musing. I wouldn’t want you to feel like you’re walking on glass. So I’ll make an extra-extra effort. Or, I’ll try anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/264 "2002-05-15T18:39:05Z")
As an observation, not intended to belittle anyone’s position, people like **Tris** and I look at the world and see a purposive operation tended by a person who has professed great powers and great love for those present. We’re quite aware of the capacity of man to be inhumane to man, and of the tendency of nature in general to not care about human wishes, but beyond these see goodness present. It’s my impression that most of the atheists see a totally non-purposive moved-by-blind-chance world that nonetheless has some “good” (i.e., pleasurable or uplifting) aspects, but in general do not expect anything good to happen unless it is caused by the “good” acts of well-intentioned humans. The one view is reinforcing and comforting to its adherents; the other is depressing or at best neutral to its. Yet we’re viewing the same world. Something like this may best explain the Heaven-Hell issue that keeps getting raised around here. As regards the OP, would it be at all worthwhile to get a good modern translation of what Jesus actually **said** and look at it? Or is the question more in the line of “abstract for me the _really important_ part of what he said?” ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/265 "2002-05-16T02:51:56Z")
Libertarian said: Death, as you most likely use the term exclusively, equates to what we would call the end of the moral play. You get a curtain call. That may be an interesting point, but it doesn’t answer my question, so I’ll rephrase. Millions of Xians, for many centuries, have claimed to have received communications from Jesus. One of the central beliefs of conventional Xianity is that if I don’t believe in, love, and worship Jesus and YHWH before I die, I will burn forever in Hell. And the word “Death” has meant, to every Xian I have ever talked to, what happens when your heart stops beating and your brainwaves flatline. You disagree. So we have an absolute contradiction, not just a different viewpoint. Either you are correct and other Xians are wrong, or vice versa. So: were all those other Xians mistaken? Hallucinating? Getting a message from some other Jesus? Again: is the Jesus who communicates with you the same being that other Xians experience? If so, how do you account for the contradiction? If not, who are the other ones? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/266 "2002-05-16T07:36:26Z")
I think it may be time to haul out the Elephant again; > [@](#): > > Either you are correct and other Xians are wrong, or vice versa. Or **both** sides are wrong Or **both** sides are partly right (maybe the term ‘death’ is just being given a different meaning - and I’d defy anyone to demonstrate a method whereby we can pinpoint the moment that ‘death’ occurs) Or … ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/267 "2002-05-16T10:54:25Z")
Mapache, Why not go straight to the horse’s mouth? Your moral journey is yours alone. The rest of us are there for you to use as you see fit. Try to separate the wheat from the trash as you filter through what you see in your play. “But about the resurrection of the dead–have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” — Jesus (Matthew 22:31-32) Decide for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/268 "2002-05-17T18:14:50Z")
For **Czarcasm** , **Mapache** , and any other atheists worried about eternal torture in burning Hell, your worries are over, for I now present you with a gift: [http://www.thisistrue.com/goohf.html](http://www.thisistrue.com/goohf.html) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SkipMagic \* > \>\>There is no logical reason why you ought to enjoy pleasure.\<\< > > Sure. Evolution and natural selection. It’d be difficult for a species to copulate and procreate if the action wasn’t pleasurable. \*\* Really? How many animals other than humans do you know that enjoy sex (well it is suggested that some of our ape cousins do)? Humans are the only species that procreate more than one season a year. For many animals (e.g. the domestic housecat), sex is painful. Many animals don’t even have sex (e.g. salmon). Many animals risk death or actually die in the attempt (this is particularly noticeable among the insects and arachnids). Yet all these animals procreate. Instinct does not require pleasure. I can just imagine an ameoba completing mitosis and saying to its other half “Was it good for you?” ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/269 "2002-05-17T18:17:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hoopy Frood \* > \*\*Many animals don’t even have sex (e.g. salmon). \*\* Well, change that slightly. They do reproduce sexually, but not through intercourse. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/270 "2002-05-17T20:49:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hoopy Frood \* > \*\* > > Well, change that slightly. They do reproduce sexually, but not through intercourse. \*\* You’re right in that I should have brushed that statement with a much narrower stroke. Um…oops. Still, I stand by how logical it is for the human species to find pleasure through sex through the explanation of an evolved species. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/271 "2002-05-17T21:07:02Z")
I guess that would also explain the pleasurable sensations of childbirth. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/272 "2002-05-17T22:52:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hoopy Frood \* > Really? How many animals other than humans do you know that enjoy sex (well it is suggested that some of our ape cousins do)? Humans are the only species that procreate more than one season a year. \*\* Dolphins. The have sex year round for pleasure, although they do have mating seasons. Technically, don’t human females have mating “seasons” too? It’s just they have 12 per year as opposed to just one. What this has to do with Jesus’ message is beyond me. But I’m sure Jesus loves the dolphins too. [sub]::walks out singing “Jesus loves the little dolphins…”::[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/273 "2002-05-18T12:10:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*I guess that would also explain the pleasurable sensations of childbirth. 😉 \*\* Well, if _you_ can figure out how to make the ordeal of squeezing of something the size of a watermelon through a hole the size of a lemon pleasurable, I’m sure the science taxonomists will name the next stage of human evolution after you. Maybe, for example, _AustrloLibertarian_. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/274 "2002-05-18T12:13:00Z")
Um…that should be _AustraloLibertarian_. Damn _A_s, they’re slippery little devils, ren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/275 "2002-05-18T12:51:47Z")
One lady told me that, to get a feeling for what it might be like, I should imagine shitting a bowling ball. At any rate, I don’t see how your treatment of natural selection is any different from what Czar says people do with the Bible. You pick and choose what sounds the best, and then make excuses for the rest. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/276 "2002-05-18T19:16:51Z")
What Czar _says_ people do with the Bible?!? Can anyone give me a rough estimate of how many Christian sects now exist, each one differing on such matters as interpretation and verse emphasis? This isn’t something I made up, Lib. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/277 "2002-05-18T19:31:35Z")
No, you’re right, Czar. You didn’t make it up. The history of Christendom is replete with Internecine battles over piddly shit. (Thank you, Phil Dennison. ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/278 "2002-05-18T20:12:03Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re right, Mange. I guess I’m like Tris in the sense that I can’t help but try. I should really by happy when I’m ridiculed for my faith, and I should unconditionally love those who do it. The moral journey goes on. Buddy, look up the last of the Beatitudes (Matthew version). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/279 "2002-05-18T20:15:09Z")
As they used to say in my day, far out. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/280 "2002-05-19T18:34:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*At any rate, I don’t see how your treatment of natural selection is any different from what Czar says people do with the Bible. You pick and choose what sounds the best, and then make excuses for the rest. 😉 \*\* No, actually, I didn’t make excuses for anything. I admitted that I made a mistake and was perfectly willing (as most religious apologists aren’t wont to do) to not cloud the issue with a diatribe of mangled, ambiguous and convoluted faux-logic. I didn’t come back with statements of how I _feel_ this might be true due to some highly suspicious, yet strongly purported disembodied voice giving me instructions; nor did I avoid the accusation that I had written something incorrect by offering up questions that are thinly-vield attempts to draw away from my mistake. I said I was wrong, which puts me–on a level of personal responsibility–_way_ ahead of most Bible defenders. So put _that_ in your corn-pipe and smoke it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212/281 "2002-05-21T00:00:45Z")
By the way, it should read “…thinly-veiled…”; if you read anything else, it’s probably because you’re suffering through some mighty fun hallucinations. I don’t misspell. Ever. I swer. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-just-what-was-jesus-message/106212.md?page=15)