# So, let's talk about that whole Veterans Health Administration thing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115 "2014-05-23T18:10:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/61 "2014-05-25T17:34:31Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > an indirect result of that decision is that some people might be alive today if they hadn’ Where exactly is the evidence of that, however? If the records showed the veterans had really been waiting 17 or 35 or 62 or 107 days instead of 14, what would have been the outcomes? The VA’s ability to provide appointments is dependent on the number of doctors (nurses, X-ray techs, etc.) and the availability of facilities, neither of which depend on the length of the waiting lists. The VA operates within a budgeted amount; if the amount isn’t sufficient, the only alternative is to go back to Congress and ask for more money. That process won’t happen within a few days or weeks; it may well end up taking several years to get another radiologist or oncologist or whatever budgeted, assigned to a facility, hired, and so forth. The people on the waiting lists when the process started spent exactly as long on that list whether it was secret or not. While the number of veterans is declining as the WWII/Korea generation dies off, the number utilizing the VA is _increasing_ dramatically. Outpatient visits, e.g., went from 46.5 million in 2002 to 83.6 million in 2012. Budgets are increasing, too, but not by enough to let them get ahead of the curve. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/62 "2014-05-25T19:28:08Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > That’s why they should always include all the dead guys in their surveys, to keep it apples to apples. Those dead guys have the right to be heard too, right? How dare you? The American heroes exterminated by VA Death Panels are victims of sloth, malice and, in some cases most probably secret experimentation. Sometimes it’s just a VA nurse too comfortable suckling at the taxpayer’s teat who is too lazy to get a guy an aspirin, but surely some of the deaths are politically targeted. And it may be that some of the deaths are due to secret government experiments similar to those of Dr. Christian Szell during the 1940’s. Deaths in the World’s Greatest Health System, America’s freely competitive systems, on the other hand, are tributes to Free Market Virtues. If those dead could speak, they’d praise their deaths, and show pride at being sacrificed on the altar of entrepreneurial efficacy so that real Americans too proud to suckle their healthcare from the Marxist teat, could have lower premiums. Each of those deaths is like a joyous poem. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/63 "2014-05-25T20:30:45Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Where exactly is the evidence of that, however? > > If the records showed the veterans had really been waiting 17 or 35 or 62 or 107 days instead of 14, what would have been the outcomes? That’s why I said “might.” That’s all anyone can say now. Absent a time machine, we have no way of knowing what would have happened had they not been on a wait list. The only thing we know is that the records were falsified, the red flag list specifically designed to identify if anyone was not getting prompt treatment, so any action that might have occurred in reaction, didn’t. We’ll never know for sure who would have lived. Perhaps some individual instances where the facts make it highly likely that quicker treatment would have saved the day will come out, but no one will know for certain even then. Of course, if the defense of the VHA’s falsification of records, obscuring the existence of waiting patients who then died during the wait, relies on some form of, “Well, who knows, maybe they would have died anyway”–well, that’s pretty weak. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/64 "2014-05-25T22:33:12Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Yeah, that was a real pro move ignoring everything in my post after the first sentence. Just like magic, no one will notice you have no answer for it. You, sir, are a true master, and I bow before your superior debating skills. The rest of your post was you stating your opinion. Was I supposed to care about it ? What answer were you expecting for your absence of a question ? I’m serious, were you actually expecting any response to your “well _I_ think you said that”, itself a response to “that’s not what I said” ? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/65 "2014-05-25T23:15:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The rest of your post was you stating your opinion. Was I supposed to care about it ? What answer were you expecting for your absence of a question ? I’m serious, were you actually expecting any response to your “well _I_ think you said that”, itself a response to “that’s not what I said” ? This is what I wrote: > [@](#): > > And your point earlier most certainly was at least in part a minimization of this falsification, which you said was only a falsification “for a given value,” not as bad as stealing petty cash for example, no malfeasance you could detect. Call it whatever you’d like, sounds like making excuses to me. A brilliant paraphrase by me of these posts: > [@](#): > > I’m… not sure how it’s a thing to begin with. Suits upstairs came up with unworkable rules and guidelines wholly abstract and disconnected from the realities in place because saying it should be so naturally makes it so (and noncompliance incurrs penalties, because that makes it all work of course) ; and the guys on the ground found ways to work around those rules while covering their asses. > > It’s wrong at every step I suppose, for a given value of wrong ; but I’m not seeing malfeasance is my point. > [@](#): > > But from what I heard, what happened was that there were strict guidelines in place that “Waiting times WILL NOT be longer than 14 days, you peons have been warned” and when actual wait times were actually longer the clerks would simply not log the waiting patient until their appointment were 14 days away (or would reschedule the admistrative appointment to secure a doctor’s appointment until a possible doctor’s appointment was available within 14 days, it’s not 100% clear to me). > > Which I suppose does count as falsifying records, again for a given value of falsifying, but whatareyagonnado ? > [@](#): > > But to me there’s a difference between massaging numbers into adding up right because if you don’t you’re out the door (with zero indication that the problem you gave up your job to demonstrate is getting fixed, or even getting any attention at all, BTW), and making numbers add up right because you’re dipping into the petty cash. That’s what I meant by “no malfeasance”. \ And like it or not that’s what most people would have done in their shoes. Particularly low-level clerks who don’t exactly have the luxury of quitting their job the better to stand on principles. You can’t eat principles. Even moreso when the victims of the path of least resistance are never seen by the cogs in the Machine. You can rage about human nature if you want, but _shrug_. And finally: > [@](#): > > I’m not excusing fuck all. Your entire exchange was an excuse for the people who falsified the records, placed in a barely coherent context of what the root cause was. Sorry, you wrote it, try owning it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/66 "2014-05-25T23:43:09Z")
Still not seeing a question, or anything I’m supposed to “answer for”. Still seeing nothing but your opinion on what I wrote. So I’ll ask again : what response are you expecting for that dazzling brilliance of yours, humble sir ? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/67 "2014-05-25T23:56:24Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Still not seeing a question, or anything I’m supposed to “answer for”. Still seeing nothing but your opinion on what I wrote. So I’ll ask again : what response are you expecting for that dazzling brilliance of yours, humble sir ? “Yes, Stratocaster, I can see now that you’re right, I did indeed excuse ‘fuck all.’ Thanks for the enlightenment. I’ll try not be so inconsistent in the future.” Then bow your head and genuflect. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/68 "2014-05-26T00:01:21Z")
Well, I’d keep masturbating if I were you, that’ll make the wait more enjoyable. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/69 "2014-05-26T00:04:32Z")
Thanks for the latest pro tip. But even if that works for you, I’ll stick with my own posting habits. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/70 "2014-05-27T21:26:59Z")
I don’t have time to read the thread now, so I apologize for that. When I am not running off to work I shall. But I did want to point this out: [QUOTE=Sen. Bernie Sanders] The bottom line here, I would hope that as a country, is that we fully understand the cost of war. And Andrea let me tell you, I think many people do not. We’re not just talking about the thousands of people who died in Iraq and Afghanistan. We’re talking about 200,000 men and women who came home with PTSD and TBI. We’re talking about people who came home without legs, without arms, without hearing, and without eyesight, and if this country stands for anything, what we have got to say is that we are going to provide adequate funding to make sure that every person who is entitled to those healthcare services gets the best healthcare they can and they get it in a timely manner. [/QUOTE] The [article at Politics USA](http://www.politicususa.com/2014/05/27/bernie-sanders-terrifies-republicans-pointing-war-va-problem.html) goes on to mention > [@](#): > > Senate Republicans blocked a bill that would have built 27 new VA facilities and clinics in February. Sen. Sanders is working with the White House to bring the bill to improve care for our vets back, but Republicans like Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) are already complaining about the $2.1 billion a year cost for ten years. In an exchange with Sen. Rubio on the Senate floor, Sen. Sanders said, “If you think it’s too expensive to take care of our veterans then don’t send them to war.” I realize that it’s easy for Democrats to point out that when Republicans start screaming scandal that either the Republican administration(s) prior had the same issues and/or their own policies or stance on bills are responsible for the problems. But in this case, nobody other than Sanders is mentioning the obvious: We just had hundreds of thousands of new veterans of foreign wars made in the past decade-plus. The system needs to be made to account for that. And using supposed fiscal responsibility is the reason Republicans in office are contributing towards not fixing this problem. So it’s especially disingenuous for them to be making this a partisan issue. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/71 "2014-05-28T00:02:43Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Thanks for the latest pro tip. But even if that works for you, I’ll stick with my own posting habits. Pity. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/72 "2014-05-28T03:06:32Z")
Does anyone know how the secret waiting lists were kept secret? Presumably the veterans who were told the next available appointment is in 6 months knew that the waits were more than 14 days, whatever the stated policy. I’m a little confused how that works. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/73 "2014-05-28T20:23:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, I’d keep masturbating if I were you, that’ll make the wait more enjoyable. It is against the rules to suggest that another poster is deriving - in any way - sexual gratification from their arguments. Please don’t do so again. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/74 "2014-05-28T20:50:17Z")
… that’s a suspiciously specific rule, innit ? 🙂 Fine. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/75 "2014-05-28T21:07:03Z")
It’s horrifying that we had to institute it, but it’s been in the official GD rules since 2004, believe it or not. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/76 "2014-05-28T22:46:34Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > But in this case, nobody other than Sanders is mentioning the obvious: We just had hundreds of thousands of new veterans of foreign wars made in the past decade-plus. On the other hand World War II and Korean Conflict vets have been dying off rapidly in the past decade–and there were a great deal more veterans who came home from these conflicts. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/77 "2014-05-29T00:01:07Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > That’s why I said “might.” . . . We’ll never know for sure who would have lived. Perhaps some individual instances where the facts make it highly likely that quicker treatment would have saved the day will come out, but no one will know for certain even then. . . . Has anyone done a quick check to see if the 40 veterans who died did so of the thing they were waiting to be seen for? Because if someone dies of a heart attack before the expiration of their three month wait to get their rash seen by a dermatologist, I’m a little less outraged than if they died of a heart attack before they could get their chest pains evaluated by a cardiologist. > [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Does anyone know how the secret waiting lists were kept secret? Presumably the veterans who were told the next available appointment is in 6 months knew that the waits were more than 14 days, whatever the stated policy. I’m a little confused how that works. Once it becomes part of the process, it’s just part of the process. Who does it have to be kept secret from? You’re a veteran and you get told when your appointment is going to be. Do you know that there’s a “stated policy” that you should be seen in 14 days? If you do, and you get a longer wait, are you surprised? If you complain, odds are you won’t be complaining to the offsite managers who created the 14 day policy. It only has to be kept secret from the offsite managers who created and enforced the 14 day policy punishments. When the policy went into effect, I guarantee that the folks making the appointments and their supervisors lodged complaints and that the complaints were ignored in a way that made it clear that the OMs were completely out of the loop and determined to stay that way. When the enforcers made it clear that they didn’t want to know what was going on, they pretty much announced that no effort to keep anything secret needed to be made. No matter how open the process became, they weren’t going to know. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/78 "2014-05-29T07:05:18Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > On the other hand World War II and Korean Conflict vets have been dying off rapidly in the past decade–and there were a great deal more veterans who came home from these conflicts. A larger percentage of veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan and the Gulf War before them need much more intense treatments than veterans of previous conflicts: > [@](#): > > According to the Department of Veterans Affairs, granting adequate coverage to military veterans has ballooned in cost from $14.8 billion in 2000 to $39.4 billion in 2011. That number tracks with previous statistics that showed 45 percent of 1.6 million veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan have sought disability benefits. > > A large portion of that increase comes from more awareness of the benefits afforded to veterans — due to legislation since the Vietnam war — and a boost in the number of conditions covered by the VA, including PTSD and traumatic brain injuries. The result is a higher number of claims across the board for more conditions. > > **The average number of conditions compensated for each veteran has grown from 2.3 for the World War II generation to 3.5 for those from the Vietnam War to six for Iraq and Afghanistan veterans, the VA says.** > > [Think Progress](http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/01/16/1455521/veterans-disability-costs-double-iraq-afghanistan/) ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/79 "2014-05-29T14:42:10Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > It only has to be kept secret from the offsite managers who created and enforced the 14 day policy punishments. When the policy went into effect, I guarantee that the folks making the appointments and their supervisors lodged complaints and that the complaints were ignored in a way that made it clear that the OMs were completely out of the loop and determined to stay that way. I guess so. I just find it surprising that in an organization providing something like 85MM medical appointments per year, no one subject to these long waits ever demanded to speak to higher-ups, which might have alerted them to a vast disconnect between the reported waits and the actual waits. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/80 "2014-05-29T14:46:27Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > I guess so. I just find it surprising that in an organization providing something like 85MM medical appointments per year, no one subject to these long waits ever demanded to speak to higher-ups, which might have alerted them to a vast disconnect between the reported waits and the actual waits. I’m pretty sure the local managers, the higher-ups to whom a veteran might complain, already knew what was going on. The ones from whom it was hidden (or “hidden”) were the bosses in Washington, etc., and a veteran in Phoenix was very very unlikely to have demanded to speak to somebody that high up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115.md?page=5)