# So, let's talk about that whole Veterans Health Administration thing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115 "2014-05-23T18:10:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/81 "2014-05-29T14:54:28Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > On the other hand World War II and Korean Conflict vets have been dying off rapidly in the past decade–and there were a great deal more veterans who came home from these conflicts. However, soldiers in those conflicts who suffered horrific injuries usually died on the battlefield or shortly thereafter. Advances in modern medicine mean more survive, but they don’t survive unscathed. For example, [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war) reports that in World War II, U.S. military casualties numbered 1,076,245, of whom 405,399 died and 670,846 were wounded (37% death rate). In Afghanistan, of 20,904 casualties, just 2,229 were fatal (ten percent death rate). ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/82 "2014-05-30T23:41:57Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > First off, I’ve worked in health care for many years, in Europe, and I have no idea what a “_socialized system_” is. We normally divide health care delivery systems into four categories, Beveridge, Bismarck, NHI and out of pocket. The term “_socialized system_” is something I’ve only heard from Americans, and no-one has ever explained what it means. > > I suspect it doesn’t mean anything at all. Hmmm. If it doesn’t mean anything at all, why were liberals such as Krugman and [Timothy Noah](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/chatterbox/2005/03/the_triumph_of_socialized_medicine.single.html) specifically saying that the VHA was a sterling example of how great “socialized medicine” is? Were they saying something that meant nothing at all when they wrote those articles? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/83 "2014-05-31T00:32:48Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Hmmm. If it doesn’t mean anything at all, why were liberals such as Krugman and [Timothy Noah](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/chatterbox/2005/03/the_triumph_of_socialized_medicine.single.html) specifically saying that the VHA was a sterling example of how great “socialized medicine” is? Were they saying something that meant nothing at all when they wrote those articles? Well, if there’s anything which can completely demolish an argument for socialized medicine, it’s referring to an article written nine years before someone fucked things up. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/84 "2014-05-31T01:07:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Pity. Wow. You’re a moderator? That was your reaction to that exchange? Pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/85 "2014-05-31T01:10:07Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Hmmm. If it doesn’t mean anything at all, why were liberals such as Krugman and [Timothy Noah](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/chatterbox/2005/03/the_triumph_of_socialized_medicine.single.html) specifically saying that the VHA was a sterling example of how great “socialized medicine” is? Were they saying something that meant nothing at all when they wrote those articles? Going by patient satisfaction, the VA is rated [pretty highly](http://www.armytimes.com/article/20140416/BENEFITS04/304160035/Patients-rate-VA-medical-centers-high-satisfaction). But the VA is not even the best example of socialized medicine in the US – the best example is Tricare for active military. The military, a government run organization, manages to provide very, very good medical care for service-members. It was certainly the best health care and health insurance I’ve ever received in my life. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/86 "2014-05-31T02:28:06Z")
I know a guy who would love to be on a waiting list. Being on a waiting implies that you might actually get care at some point. Right now he’s on the “live the rest of your life with a ruined knee” list, since he can’t afford surgery. We don’t track that list. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/87 "2014-06-01T05:39:26Z")
I know my 76 year old father has been receiving excellent care at his local VA hospital. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115/88 "2014-06-01T07:44:56Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Well, if there’s anything which can completely demolish an argument for socialized medicine, it’s referring to an article written nine years before someone fucked things up. Repeated for emphasis. What happened with the VA was a case of ass-covering and deception so that the employees could earn bonuses. The system itself is fine, the employees screwed it up by being greedy and hoping that somehow no one would ever notice that they were cooking the books. In the Canadian system, there are no incentives for short wait lists that I am aware of. Socialized medicine is not a problem in and of itself. Greedy people are. You don’t get to a point of saying “Let’s fuck with the wait lists!” when you don’t earn anything extra by doing so. Start putting cash bonuses in there though and the accounting is going to get creative. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lets-talk-about-that-whole-veterans-health-administration-thing/689115.md?page=4)