# So Lucy, 'splain something to me: how could a just God kill David's baby for his father's crimes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620 "2011-11-30T22:19:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/41 "2011-12-01T20:55:02Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > It’s worse than Skald puts it. > > After Nathan the prophet confronts David, David responds that a man who does as he did should pay with his life OR pay fourfold. He not only lost his baby with Bathsheba but one son (Ammon?) rapes his sister Tamar & is killed by a half-brother Absalom who then challenges David for the throne & is killed. Near the end of David’s life, a fourth son names himself successor, as rival to David’s appointed one Solomon, his only surviving child with Bathsheba, & is executed for his ‘treason’. Not one baby alone but three more grown sons bite the dust. And even better better Matthew says that Jesus is descended from Solomon. Well Joseph is, not Jesus actually, but that gets into another whole bit of confusion. > [@](#): > > That said, I think Chronos &, rhetorically, Lemur866 explained it best. I will challenge Chronos’ assertion that Bathsheba bore no blame. She may have quite willingly come to David’s bed. It’s not stated that he ordered or forced her. Perhaps a “Noble King, the Lord has favored you and seated you on the Throne of Israel but He has also let you travail for it & challenge the King whom He had previously so blessed. If we transgress God’s Law, might He not raise His hand against you?” would have caught David off guard & caused him to repent. Classic case of sexual harassment. When de King want your booty, you give the king your booty or else. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/42 "2011-12-01T21:08:33Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Hence Lewis’s remark that, if God’s will is utterly incomprehensible to us, we might as well worship an omnipotent fiend, because our obedience can be motivated only by terror, not by love. You can’t assume God’s will is incompehensible just because we don’t like it. The God of the Bible has pretty clear about what’s going on: here are the rules, follow them and you’ll do okay, break them and you’ll be punished. David broke a law and he was punished for it. And if you accept that God is handing out punishments, you should also accept Biblical claims that he hands out rewards to those who obey his laws. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/43 "2011-12-01T21:30:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Classic case of sexual harassment. When de King want your booty, you give the king your booty or else. Correct, look what happened to [Vashti.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vashti)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/44 "2011-12-01T21:30:16Z")
Look, your question really does boil down exactly to the problem of evil. Bad things happen to good people. Babies die for no reason related to human morality. Earthquakes and hurricanes and other natural disasters happen for no reason related to human morality. The authors of the Bible were well aware that babies died, that people get sick and die, that the fate of every human being was misery and death. And so, their conception of God was consistent with the notion that babies who had committed no sins of their own got sick and died. This is the problem of evil in a nutshell. What’s the difference between David’s baby and every other baby who has sickened and died? None, obviously. Either every dead baby dies by the will of God, or none do. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/45 "2011-12-01T21:37:47Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > This is the problem of evil in a nutshell. What’s the difference between David’s baby and every other baby who has sickened and died? None, obviously. Either every dead baby dies by the will of God, or none do. I still vote for “Shit happens.” ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/46 "2011-12-01T22:09:06Z")
If I remember my scriptures correctly, the baby was in on it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/47 "2011-12-01T22:13:49Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > If I remember my scriptures correctly, the baby was in on it. Just like the ones he killed in the Flood. God knows that you can’t trust those babies as far as you can throw them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/48 "2011-12-01T22:16:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You can’t assume God’s will is incompehensible just because we don’t like it. The God of the Bible has pretty clear about what’s going on: here are the rules, follow them and you’ll do okay, break them and you’ll be punished. David broke a law and he was punished for it. And if you accept that God is handing out punishments, you should also accept Biblical claims that he hands out rewards to those who obey his laws. Except that when we ask for the logic behind a contradiction or an especially bizarre supposed action of God, we get that God is to great to be comprehended. As for rewards and punishments, a study of the more boring parts of the latter Bible shows us evil Kings who died at an old age in bed, and virtuous kings who died young in pointless battle. God’s rewards and punishments seem indistinguishable from chance. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/49 "2011-12-01T22:21:18Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > However, I shoudl also point out that the Jews were not exactly perfectly reliable, and tended to put convenient words in the mouth of God. How lucky we are that the reliable Christians never did such things. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/50 "2011-12-01T22:24:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Except that when we ask for the logic behind a contradiction or an especially bizarre supposed action of God, we get that God is to great to be comprehended. As for rewards and punishments, a study of the more boring parts of the latter Bible shows us evil Kings who died at an old age in bed, and virtuous kings who died young in pointless battle. God’s rewards and punishments seem indistinguishable from chance. God is nothing if not totally just and loving. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/51 "2011-12-01T22:27:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > God is nothing if not totally just and loving. An impeccably logical statement. Especially the nothing part. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/52 "2011-12-01T22:29:00Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > However, I shoudl also point out that the Jews were not exactly perfectly reliable, and tended to put convenient words in the mouth of God. \ Vas you dere, Charley? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/53 "2011-12-01T22:33:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You can’t assume God’s will is incompehensible just because we don’t like it. Incomprehensible may not be the right word. But no ethical system I can imagine subscribing to would rule Yahweh’s actions in this incident just, kind, or loving. It’d be one thing if we were talking about Odin, whose straightforward about being a dick; but Yahweh, claiming the mantle of righteousness, seems obliged in my view to actually **be** righteous. > [@](#): > > The God of the Bible has pretty clear about what’s going on: here are the rules, follow them and you’ll do okay, break them and you’ll be punished. David broke a law and he was punished for it. And if you accept that God is handing out punishments, you should also accept Biblical claims that he hands out rewards to those who obey his laws. Yeah, that doesn’t happen either. ---
**Author:** ![SeaCanary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SeaCanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaCanary)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/54 "2011-12-01T23:01:40Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Hence Lewis’s remark that, if God’s will is utterly incomprehensible to us, we might as well worship an omnipotent fiend, because our obedience can be motivated only by terror, not by love. > > Theres a difference between being unable to understand fully and being unable to understand at all. Good is mercilessly complicated, as any moral philosopher soon finds. God more or less flat-out says we won’t understand everything, and that you have to accept what you can and move on. To answer the OP’s question… > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Now Christians, please tell me this: how do you – you, personally, not your church or pastor – reconcile Yahweh’s behavior in this story with the notion that he is just and merciful? … I reconcile it by believing (and it’s quite hard for me sometimes) that “God more or less flat-out says we won’t understand everything, and that you have to accept what you can and move on” as **smiling bandit** says. ---
**Author:** ![Deegeea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Deegeea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deegeea)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/55 "2011-12-01T23:14:27Z")
If I were writing the Bible, which I’m obviously not, I’d put in a section where God says, “This child should not have been conceived or born, and does not figure in the plan. By transgressing and killing Uriah and taking Bathsheba to wife, you have condemned the child to an early death.” Basically showing that if this not supposed to be there child were to live to adulthood, he would mess up the unfolding of the Plan. Or better yet, have Bathsheba say it to David. That way God can keep the “ineffable” characteristic but the background still gets explained to the reader, and it’s deniable if it turns out not to be what’s wanted as Bathsheba’s misunderstanding. That explanation takes care of the free will + God’s plan. It also manages the rules: God gave people consciences to hint to them what to do to make the best possible version of the plan happen. But the plan has contingencies on everything possible. The parts outside human control can fix the parts within the humans’ ability to choose. You can go against destiny and make it your enemy, or you can follow it and accede. I don’t actually believe that on all levels, I might on some, I’m not sure really (I tend to be rather agnostic about religion most of the time, in the sense of feeling I am of divided mind on the topic altogether). But it is my best idea of what the Bible should’ve been getting at, at that point in the narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/56 "2011-12-01T23:14:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Yeah, that doesn’t happen either. Personally, that’s my opinion as well. But if you’re not willing to give God credit, you shouldn’t be giving him blame. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/57 "2011-12-01T23:21:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Personally, that’s my opinion as well. But if you’re not willing to give God credit, you shouldn’t be giving him blame. Oh, that’s bullshit. I don’t give Mephistopheles credit for anything, and I don’t give Odin credit for much, but I’m perfectly willing to pile blame on the both of 'em. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/58 "2011-12-01T23:29:42Z")
> [@Deegeea](#): > > You can go against destiny and make it your enemy, or you can follow it and accede. How can you go against destiny? If you go against destiny, doesn’t that mean you were destined to go against destiny, and therefore aren’t really going against destiny? I mean, if the oracle says you’re going to kill your father and marry your mother, and you run away from home and kill a random guy and marry the widowed queen, and later found out that you were abandoned by them because the oracle said you were gong to kill your father and marry your mother, how exactly did you go against destiny? You didn’t go against destiny, you fulfilled your destiny. If God has a plan, by definition you can’t go against God’s plan. At least the Calvinists are consistent about this. If you stab a baby, God decided that you would stab a baby, and if a baby gets stabbed, God decided the baby would get stabbed. If later you repent of your sins and are saved, God decided that you would repent of your sins and be saved. If you don’t repent of your sins and go to hell, God decided that you would not repent would go to hell. If there is such a thing as destiny, or God’s will, then no human being can escape it. If you can escape destiny, then there’s no such thing as destiny. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/59 "2011-12-01T23:38:42Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > How lucky we are that the reliable Christians never did such things. I told you so… ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620/60 "2011-12-02T14:41:02Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Stop assigning human traits to God and you’ll have less of a headache. Yes, human traits like “logic” and “justness” and “existence” clearly do not apply. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-lucy-splain-something-to-me-how-could-a-just-god-kill-davids-baby-for-his-fathers-crimes/604620.md?page=4)