So many atheists, so few anarchists...

I’ve got a model for structured decision-making that scales upwards without depending on rank (i.le., putting people in any position of decision-making authority over other people).

I do not have a 5-year plan for how to manage the coal industry, explore the rings of Saturn, or distribute the winter crop most effectively in Shanghai. It’s a freaking anarchy, why would I be planning such things as if they were up to me?

We aren’t uprooting the existing government of

a) Evansville IL
b) Illinois or
c) The United States of America

and then creating an anarchy where that other government used to be, while the rest of the surrounding world continues to run as it did. So forget about dealing with archist countries etc, it’s not an issue. Stop thinking of anarchy as “a form of government”. It is “a way of handling collective decision-making”. If it is going to make existing forms of government obsolete, it will do so first by coexisting alongside of them within their borders, and proving to be more efficient, more versatile, less cumbersome, than the existing structures, to the point that gradually people rely on it more and more while utilizing the old structures less and less as the most effective way of getting what they want from “society” (i.e., their interactions with other people). So there is no “concrete specific proposals for implementation of anarchy in the United States” any more than there is a “concrete specific proposal for implementation of anarchy in Evanston Illinois”.

More later, I have a doctor’s appt.

Sounds like it’d be ripe for invasion and conquest, or just a plain beat down by the powers that be (most states don’t like large swathes of their country going into insurrection).

Who said jack shit about insurrection?

We’re about as threatening as a poker convention! As dangerous as Craig’s List! As radical as a Farmer’s Co-op! (Well, actually it is radical in the sense of what it really means, but as a disruptive or threatening social activity it shouldn’t even be on the radar)

One more time: it’s just a peaceful little experiment in collective decision-making. You folks keep thinking about those 19th Century folks with their bombs and sabots. I said nothing about violent overthrow of anything.

I do. Next two posts. They are reposts of this post and this next post from page 5 of this thread from last April. If a moderator objects to the reposting thereof, just follow the links instead (but probably best if you confine your replies, if any, to this thread).

Details (Part One):

PREFACE

• The following is implemented as a “project” or “experiment”. Participants are voluntary. What the volunteers initially agree to is to utilize the initial structure; it is explained to them that the goal of the experiment is to try out the structure as a possible mechanism for group organization & decision-making. (Therefore, kindly do not post things like “But if this is an ‘anarchy’ what if they don’t want to use the structure, huh?” I will grant that a person could volunteer to be in such a project, agreeing to the terms, and then act contrary to that. But that’s not a risk intrinsic to an anarchy experiment).

• The experimental group is given an initial “task” or “focus”. What the folks are organized for. In this thread I’ve mentioned a baby-sitting cooperative a couple times, that will do. It could also be the management of a block of apartment houses, occupied for the duration of the experiment by the participants (i.e., communal living). Or it could be the operation of a community health care center.

• The structure is described to them as containing the means of changing the structure itself, just as (for instance) the US Constitution provides the tools for its own Amendments. Participants are asked to address any insufficiencies of the structure by using those tools to effect changes to the system from within the system.

GENERALITIES
• Anarchy is loosely described as refraining from participating in decision-making that constrains or compels the behavior of others who were not participants in the decision-making, and refraining from embracing a decision that any participant states opposition to.

• it is understood by everyone that decisions and policies are not yes-no or on-off like a light bulb, but rather come in increments of tentativeness and permanence. There is a specific structure for creating each of several increments of decision, so that a new idea can be adopted tentatively and implemented while still being open to constant evaluation and reappraisal and process. Ideas that demonstrate practicality and widespread acceptance are gradually ratified into more permanent categories via a similarly specific structure. The adoption of the structures will greatly reduce misunderstandings between people as to the degree of organizational commitment to an idea that some may not feel any too sure about.

• The corollary to the ability to have tentative decisions as described above is the organization-wide understanding that consensus does not mean enslavement of each individual to the approval of all of the others. An individual who really wants to do something proposes organization acceptance of an idea on a tentative level. Acceptance of the okayness of giving an idea a trial run should be denied only for a damn good reason. At the other end, adoption of an idea as permanent org policy would occur only with complete consensual no-reservations ratification by all involved personnel. The most tentative and temporary levels of approval of ideas that directly affect only a few people or only a specific branch of the organization could be granted without consulting all participants – and the rest of the organization would be involved later with the opportunity to “second-guess” it as a good or not-so-good idea when it is brought up at the next higher level of decision-making. The idea of trusting each other and each other’s judgment is therefore tied to the idea that tentative decisions are temporary, and that no one will be left out of decisions that are proposed for more long-term implementation.

• When an idea or a suggestion is tossed out for processing by the rest of the organization, there is a structured form in which it is presented, consisting of a quick overview of the understanding of what problem the suggestion or idea is designed to address, an overview of which values are involved in deciding to address that problem, and why the idea or suggestion is thought to be practical as a method of addressing it. In criticizing an idea or suggestion, other agency personnel will address each of their criticisms or questions to an aspect of the idea – disagreement with the understanding of the problem, disagreement with the priority given to the values in contrast with other values which may be “stepped on” by the idea, disagreement with the practicality of the proposed suggestion in terms of whether it would work or not or in terms of whether it would have dangerous side-effects on the org or not. The format of the criticisms would therefore also be structured in a formal sense.

Lest all of this formality give you the creeps, there would always be a category of “Other” comments or criticisms after the roster of formal categories have been gone through.
SPECIFICS
Decisions, ad hoc level (temporary, tentative, minor scope)

The overall experimental group shall be divided into thirds, each of which shall be subdivided into thirds, and those into thirds, and so on until the number of participants in the bottommost subgrouping is between 3 and 9. The smallest subgroups will begin meeting immediately to discuss the goals of the experimental group (babysitting coop, healthcare center, whatever). This meeting shall initially be scheduled for the morning to last 2 hours, with participants encouraged to plan how to present their ideas to a larger group. A second meeting of the same subgroup is scheduled for the afternoon of the same day, and a third for the following morning. That third meeting will take place in a larger room and two other subgroups will join, to create a meeting roughly 3 times the size meeting one third as often. Subsequent meeting schedules and durations will be set by the participants, except for the third meeting of the larger group, which is set to coincide with two other groups of that size, for which time and venue is initially set. (But after two meetings its participants can likewise discuss and modify scheduling and so forth).
Any subgroup of any size/level of the organization can consent as a group to implement the ideas of one or more members of that subgroup as if a larger-group consensus existed, provided that, at the next up-level meeting, the ideas and rationale behind them are brought up, the results described, and the decision is ratified up to the next level.

There is a level of decision below this one, the informal simple stuff that every participant naturally assumes her or himself to have the judgment to decide without consultation – should I tell the 4 year old girl in childcare that the mopped floor is fine & she can quit even though it isn’t? When you aren’t sure whether or not to decide informally and alone, but the ad hoc level described here seems right, use it. When the formality described here seems ridiculous, don’t. Trust your judgment.

Decisions, tentative trial level (okayed, still in process)

The organization participants, when presented with a participant’s idea and his or her request for an okay (to go ahead and implement it to try it out & explore it in practice as well as in theoretical discussion), either grants that okay or denies it.

Any single person has the authority to deny such an okay, but given the tentativeness of that okay, should put the proverbial foot down only for a good reason. The presumption should be “okay until demonstrated otherwise” (sort of like innocent until proven guilty). There should be a solid practical reason or a permanent level agency policy at the theoretical level, one or the other, for saying no way.

A decision at this level is automatically on the agenda for further processing and review at the next staff meeting.

Ad hoc decisions, the preceding level, can be described and okayed to this level by staff. This would usually be part and parcel of each staff member’s overview of what happened with you and you and you this week, which keeps us in touch with each other’s activities and builds agency continuity.

Decisions at this level are simple voice-vote. Reversals of such decisions will have the same status.

more to follow…

Details (Part Two)
continued from above…

Decisions, Programmatic Trial level (okayed, can be opened for process at request, periodic review)

For policies such as they exist at any given group-of-x-participants: Ideas which are generally accepted as non-problematic after a tentative period (or bypassing tentative period if we are all comfortable with doing so) are made agency policy and need not be reviewed at every meeting. A person seeking to promote the acceptance of such a policy decision would make a motion at a regular org meeting, and all org members would be informed between that meeting and the next that such a policy motion would be under consideration at the next meeting. If someone has a problem with such a policy, that person can ask to have this subject placed on the agenda and discussion will ensue. If problem is not resolved, a person with major problems with such a decision can move, at such a meeting, for a reversal of such a policy, but the decision to reverse cannot be made at that meeting. Instead, the information that such a reversal has been proposed will be made available to all level-group participants, present and absent, who will arrive at the next meeting prepared to discuss the issue.

Once every so often, e.g., every six weeks for a group-of-27 level, a periodic review of such decisions should be placed on the agenda, at which point motions to make decision an Ongoing Policy level decision will be entertained.

The procedure for promotion to the next decision-making level, like the procedure for reversal, shall involve notification of all staff one meeting-interval in advance.

Decision, Ongoing Policy level (agency policy for the time being)

Here is a description of the procedure for making or reversing a decision at this semi -permanent level, again as it would apply for any given group-of-x-participants.

Someone or several someones would make a motion at a meeting that at the meeting following, there would be placed on the agenda the first of a minumum of three discussions of the merits of the decision versus the merits of criticisms of the decision (as outlined in the section on formal commentary).

The Information that such discussions have been proposed would go out to all agency staff one meeting-interval in advance of the first discussion.

The results of such a series of three discussions will be one of the following options as determined by 2/3 preference of staff. If 2/3 of staff cannot agree, insufficient consensus is indicated and by default option C, continuation of discussion, is indicated.

Option A: leave or promote decision to ongoing policy level; table discussion for a minimum of six weeks

Option B: demote decision to Programmatic Trial level and within that format consider reversal.

Option C: continue discussion without alteration of decision level.

Decision, permanent policy level (contractual or equivalent)

Primarily describes “decisions” such as the decision to operate as a babysitting cooperative in the first place or to swtich to lifelong communal childrearing or something, or to to seek formal incorporation as a commercial child-care facility offering services to the general public — i.e., changes in mission. Or changes to this decision-making structure itself. Previously established ideas or concepts or definitions of procedures could be concretized as the binding equivalent of this by a process that would create organizational by-laws, if we desire it.

If we don’t, the recognition of this level as a level that exists allows us to identify the source of other decisions that we make as stemming from these, and to discuss, however briefly and theoretically, what would have to change in order for us to seriously consider ideas or proposals which would, in essence, conflict with the bedrock of the organization and its identity.

At the same time, the implication of even listing such things as decision which were made on a level does imply their reversability, which means that we are not prevented from considering any line of thought if sufficient cause is indicated.

The method of promoting a decision to this level, or of demoting an idea from this level, would probably have to take the form of creating a meeting time at the highest level in our schedules for ongoing discussion of the merits of doing so; although a single meeting for the purpose of deciding whether or not to pretend, for the sake of opening dialogue and getting feelings out, that such decisions were more reversible than they actually are, could also be considered.

Formal Procedures for Proposing, Suggesting, Etc.

  1. First, the person or persons presenting the org with new ideas for consideration describes the rationale for the idea. What situation or problem is addressed by the idea? (Give the theoretical description of causes and context and so on when idea is being proposed for decisions as the more binding level; less formality is necessary when decisions under consideration are to be at more tentative levels).

  2. Second, those presenting ideas will try to anticipate conflicting perspectives that come from values, and priorities given to conflicting values, that the idea might have to be argued against. How have these possible conflicts already been considered? Which of them have been resolved with no “blood shed” so that they don’t conflict after all? Which of them are being proposed, by those presenting the ideas, as necessary casualties of more important values and priorities?

  3. Third, those presenting the ideas will describe how the idea addresses the situation or problem better than it is currently being addressed. How will the implementation look? Or if the idea being presented isn’t “fleshed out” to that point yet, and those presenting the ideas are seeking input as to how to implement, make this plain at this point. Likewise, if those presenting an idea do have specific and well-developed concepts of how the implementation of the idea would look, make that apparent. If those presenting an idea have some specific ideas, they may be committed to them or they may be very open to alternate suggestions. Make this apparent if strong feelings about specifics are involved. Strong feelings have validity, at least to an extent, and need not be disguised. Another aspect of this “specifics” part of an idea presentation should be a mention of the “therefore we have to’s”, the nuts and bolts of practical implementation decisions that would arise if the overall idea were approved – if these things have been thought out. Finally, if alternative routes towards implementation have already been considered and rejected in favor of the one or ones that the idea-presenters are the most fond of, it is useful at this point to give an overview of that process of consideration.

IN UPPER-LEVEL, MORE PERMANENT & SERIOUS DECISION PROPOSALS, THE ENTIRE PROPOSAL SHOULD BE PRESENTED AS THE PRESENTER DESIRES, with regards to whether or not questions should or should not be brought up as they occur. The formal process of waiting, and responding with criticism formalized as follows, is recommended for most efficient processing under most circumstances.

Formal Procedures for Criticizing an Idea or Proposal

One at a time, everyone has a chance to address the idea from the first category of criticism; then, one at a time, everyone has a chance to address the idea from the next category of criticism. And so on…

  1. First, criticisms of the operant problem definition. Is that really how things are? Is it really a problem if that is how things are?

  2. Second, criticisms of the priorities given to operant values at the expense of other values. Okay, if it is indeed a problem, as described, will addressing it as described not conflict with such and such other, perhaps more important, operant values? [do not include values pertaining to the continued survival of the agency at this point; that would be a practical. see below]

  3. Third, criticisms of the practicality of the proposed solution. If we did what has been suggested, would it really address the problem described? Can we, in fact, do what has been suggested? If we do indeed do it, will it result in serious agency problems that threaten the survival or viability of the agency? Will it result in serious employee problems that endanger our professional careers? And so on.

  4. Other criticisms of the proposed solution which do not seem to fit in any of the above categories.

NOTE: the word “criticism” is used here in the broader sense of affirmative as well as negative criticism.

FINALLY…

At structured intervals, meetings at the levels small enough to accomodate it should include non-specific, wide open go arounds, in which each person in turn says whatever is on her or his mind for a certain number of uninterrupted minutes, then the next person, etc. This increases the flexibility and completeness of our communication.

===============

OK, that’s enough to get started with. If I were really doing this, I would be soliciting feedback before I really kicked this off, so have at it. (But please concentrate on the specifics of the structure rather than doing a global “Wouldn’t work, can’t have anarchy, naa na na naa naa”).

Oh, and if I tried it and it didn’t work in the sense of veering off into a non-anarchy org, I’d see where it didn’t work and I’d modify accordingly and get another group of volunteers and try again. If it didn’t work in any other sense, then as long as I had volunteers not all stomping off in disgust, we’d tweak and modify from outside the system and “reset” and start over, until we at least got a system robust enough to allow for tweaking from within, and at that point it would kind of be out of my hands and take on a life of its own.

I think it could be considered insurrection when large segments of the population stopped paying taxes or doing jury duty etc. I guess the national guard or army wouldn’t really be needed through, mass arrests would do the trick.

I’m an anarchist right now and yet I pay taxes and do jury duty. Why for the love of pete do you think I’m going to stop doing those things as soon as I get a trial-run group up and running & utilizing anarchic communications strategies? Getting arrested or attracting unwanted civil attention to our group would be kind of counterproductive, wouldn’t you think?

Maybe at one time or another I said or did something to give you the impression that I’m congenitally stupid? :confused:

Kindly note, if you will, that the United States has a Communist Party. They field candidates for various elections. Oddly enough, their members do not spend their typical weeks trying to overthrow the proletariat via worker’s revolution. And this despite the fact that they actually do embrace the general concept of violent overthrow. I very specifically don’t. We’re not going to overthrow or insurrect anything. We aren’t doing or planning to do anything violent, illegal, or even disruptive.

I AM SO NOT GOING TO BOTHER TO EXPLAIN THAT AGAIN IN THIS THREAD.

Who said anything about making a 300-million-people-wide decision? Anarchy and gigantic nation-states aren’t compatible (at least as I see it).

What part of my startup design do you think would cause it to fail to scale up high enough to handle the needs of 10 billion people? Do you see a need for 300 million of them to reach a collective decision rather than handling matters on a more decentralized scale?

Moreover, do you not see in my design the apparatus for making any necessary adjustments should the design itself prove incapable of scaling up sufficiently high?

And you do understand that the idea is not to start out with several hundred million participants, but rather with 250 - 1500 or thereabouts and make adjustments and refinements as experience dictates – yes?

Sorry, Lama Pecos, I may have misconstrued the tone of you were saying. We may be on the same page here! Indeed, decentralizaton as a modality is the polar opposite of gigantic nation-states… if you weren’t being sarcastic, i.e., “Who said anything about making a 300-million-people-wide decision?” didn’t come with the implicit answer that I said anarchy was going to do that, I owe you an apology for jumping down your throat to agree with you.

What does that leave you? Do you see any hope for abolishing the state through the ordinary political process?

. . . so little time . . .

While I’m not an anarchist myself, I do find the concept interesting, and have read up a bit on it. Many of the common issues that people have are discussed here: http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html

Ahunter3, I think we’re talking at cross purposes. If all you mean by anarchy is a small group of people gathering for a specific purpose in a non-hierachical structure, well, sure. Why not? But I think when most people talk about anarchy they mean no government at all. Your anarchic co-ops all exist within the United States and will have to obey all relevant local and federal laws. Your co-op members can still vote in elections and call the police in emergencies.

Even then I still have doubts about your structure. I had an experience living in a hippie group home with eight (IIRC) other people. All decisions were to be made by consensus. It was pretty miserable. De facto leadership inevitably went to the most charming, manipulative, charismatic housemates. Consensus inevitably meant subjecting nay-sayers to pretty harsh psychological pressure. Not anything as blunt as “go along with this or we’ll bash your skull in,” but rather the silent treatment, disparaging pop-psychological personality assements, and other tactics worthy of a communist re-education camp. From what I’ve read this was not atypical. Even a simple rule by majority vote would have been better.

Your system also sounds incredibly cumbersome. Who decides who goes in which triad? Is it a random drawing? Who says it’s a random drawing? What if John and Kim, who hate each other, get stuck in the same triad? What if two triads have vastly different mutually incomatible proposals? It sounds like the simplest proposals would take forever. I just don’t see how your system will make people more happy or accomplish tasks more efficiently than a hierarchical system with managers and leaders, possibly elected maybe not.

That being said, if your co-op is sufficiently small, it’s not an impossible approach. Given a great deal of good fortune in choosing your partners the co-op could function smoothly. I’d ditch the triadic structure and formal procedures in favor of just having a big meeting once or twice a week, but do as you see fit. If your people are rational, smart and polite, and the goal is simple and clear, a hierarchy might not be necessary. But it wouldn’t be what most people would call anarchy. It would just be a partnership in the middle of a large constitutional democracy with a very strong government.

Step One is establishing a structure that will work for more the “fishing trip” number of people, providing for anarchic decision-making. That obviously does not replace anything, any more than the first motorcar capable of putting down the road instantly made horses obsolete.

Step Two, which grows out of a successful Step One, is to gradually provide the same type of communications & decision-making services that are provided for by organization structures that have leaders and hierarchies. Those that constitute “the government” are not necessarily a higher priority than those that produce things or provide services. It’s all good. Things may never proceed beyond Step Two (which would make me wrong, as I think they will); but the more that egalitarian decision-making becomes the way that we do things, the better, as far as I’m concerned. So whereas Step One accomplishes nothing but proof-of-concept, anything taking place in Step Two is an intrinsic positive good. Hence, anarchy need not be an all-or-nothing proposition.

Step Three is contingent upon anarchic processes being more efficient, less expensive in terms of effort and whatnot, more reliable, etc etc, than the existing modalities. Step Three is the rendering of those older modalities obsolete, by doing what they do better than they can do them. Or doing so much of them well enough that the general consensus of the species as a whole is that, given the desirable state of equal participation in decision-making processes, we go with them and relegate the older modalities to obsolescence. Step Three (or, actually, the very final stages of Step Three) is sort of what people think about when they speak of anarchy: “no government at all”, as you say. No decision-making in which “rank” exists at all. Yes, that’s what I believe will be the eventual outcome of this general type of process. (I’m not quite so arrogant as to say it will be the eventual outcome of my specific getting-started proposal, but from some kind of proof-of-concept beginning point and subsequent refinements).

Larry Borgia:

Been there, done that :slight_smile:

Excruciatingly long meetings trying to reach total consensus. Then the next day we find that Marie, who didn’t bother showing up, regards the results as irrelevant because she wasn’t consulted. Joe, who was there, does not agree that we did, indeed, reach consensus. So we no longer have a consensus about whether or not we have a consensus, so obviously we don’t have a consensus. Start over. Ugh!

That’s the kind of thing my structure of permanence of decision-making authority is designed to prevent. Which makes it an alternative to “picking a leader”. It’s still roleless, and rankless, but you get a hierarchy: a hierarchy of how permanently decided a decision is, not a hierarchy of people over other people.

Yes, I’ve often thought of trying my hand at writing a science-fiction novel. Against a regular “plot” background, I would have some characters be part of a social movement arguing that anarchy is not possible because the expressive people have an unfair advantage, the charismatic people have an unfair advantage, etc. Their ideas catch on easier, way out of proportion to the inherent goodness of the ideas themselves, even if eventually bad ideas do get weeded out by the process. And in the course of the novel I would make it apparent that there’s no government, no enforcement of law, that there’s no money system, all activity including labor being of course voluntary, and all is done by structured consensus… and yet still the argument rages on about whether society is as fair and equal as it should be. :slight_smile:

I guess the difficulty so many of us are having is figuring out what the significant difference is between a government and the system you’re describing.

Huh?

a) You mean you have a definition of “government” and you believe it is applicable to the system I"m describing… an applicability that you understand me to be denying? Somehow, in some fashion, somewhere, in something I said ???

:confused: :confused: :confused:

or

b) Uhhhm, something else? I can’t even guess.
Sorry, I’m totally lost here.

Yes, we are in agreement. In my opinion, anarchy would be feasible only in the context of a system of small decentralized communities. Consensus and centralization are somewhat in opposition, in my mind. Apology accepted and not wholly necessary. :slight_smile:

No worries, but you’re quoting Ahunter3, not me.

Broadband!

I’m an atheist, techno-anarcho-syndicalist. AHunter3’s done a good job of explaining one possible mechanic (this is the second time, isn’t it), but I just thought I’d add or repeat some points:

Some people seem to be under the mistaken impression that anarchism (as political movement) = anarchy (a common term for a lawless state). This is not the case. “Anarchy” means “No Rulers” i.e. no hierarchical systems, not “No Government”. Anarchists argue that it is possible to have everyone involved in direct decision making in some way i.e. true democracy is not incompatible with anarchism.

I do believe that the world isn’t ready for worldwide anarchism as sole existing system, but I agree with AHunter3 that change from within, and incipient growth of the movement, is the way forward, and also that, of all systems, anarchism is one of the ones that can easily coexist with other systems as a subsystem and retain its own integrity.

As a techno-anarchist, I subscribe to the notion that various anarchism-lite systems are already quite significant in modern life (Open Source, file sharing, parts of the anti-globalism movement, various small-scale collective orgs at work in the 3rd World). Increased uptake of tech by people hastens the day when tech becomes even more of an enabler for anarchistic societal structures. The Internet as we know it is not, now, an anarchistic system [bows to Jackbooted Mods], but parts of it do have an anarchistic character that shows promise. As a realist, I’m aware that the 'net is a very tiny part of the Real World, and most of the world does not have access.

As an anarchosyndicalist, I believe that smaller self-organised collectives along the lines of true labour unions are a valid model for organising society. As a realist, and a South African, I’m a direct witness of the fact that unions can be hijacked by hierarchists, especially of the Left. Devolution of power is the way forward to combat this, but exact modelling, I leave up to AHunter3.