# So many people still don't believe in wearing seatbelts! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379 "2005-06-01T15:28:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/121 "2005-06-06T14:25:56Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > I think I know what’s happening here; the so-called “nanny state” laws are getting stuck in people’s craws because for some unknown reason, people still think they’re living in a frontier country. Um, no, you’re not. You haven’t been for how many hundreds of years? You are living in a civilized country, and civilized countries have laws. Those laws are supposed to be for the greater good of all the citizens, and in all honesty, I believe most of them are, including seatbelt laws. > > If you don’t like the laws of civilization, may I suggest Northern Canada (or possibly Alaska - I haven’t been there, so I couldn’t say for sure)? Sure, there are still lots of laws up north, but there’s nobody to enforce them (and very few people to be affected by your frontiersmanship), so have at it. I think it’s true, and I think you’ve hit on a uniquely American strain of self-centeredness (not that, as a whole, Americans are particularly self-centered). People want freedoms for themselves - even in the case of a useless freedom like this - and they want others to bear the costs. It’s been well-proven and well-explicated how non-usage of seatbelts costs the rest of us a lot of money, but the simplistic “Keep the goddamn gummint outta my car!” types just don’t care. Their own freedoms matter - even if the freedom is a worthless one - and the costs to everyone else are irrelevant. Me, me, me. Me, I don’t see why it’s so important that we have an unlimited right to be personally stupid. I could never care about seatbelt laws because there’s simply no good reason to violate them - all the comparisons to smoking and unhealthy foods are thus nonsense. After all, those things are pleasurable, and probably fine in moderation. But there’s simply no reason not to wear a seatbelt. So why should I care that it’s illegal? The only right being taken away is one with zero value. I see no reason the government should respect this imaginary “right to be stupid.” I suggest that folks who refuse to wear their seatbelts _because_ of seatbelt laws visit a shrink; it’s sad to see someone developmentally arrested during the “pointless teenage rebellion” phase of life. Permitting people not to wear seatbelts (again, at major cost to the rest of society) is ensuring the liberty to be stupid, the liberty to make false risk assessments (like the earlier poster who doesn’t wear them because he mistakenly believes a seatbelt makes him more likely to end up an invalid), and the liberty to risk one’s life for the sake of childish rebellion. Sorry, but I can’t see why it’s so important to protect these liberties. > [@Omniscient](#): > > China, North Korea and the former Soviet Union must be really, really civilized. You’d probably love it there. I’m sorry, did you have an argument tucked in between the slippery slopes and this ludicrous nonargument? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/122 "2005-06-06T14:27:20Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > If nothing else, this thread illustrates how doctrinaire much of libertarianism is. Practically all of us agree that seat belts save lives and money and reduce injury, but there’s a libertarian contingent here that says, “So what if the law saves lives? This is about rights, about choice.” But of course the right we’re talking about here is the right to be flung through a windshield at a high speed. No one would ever exercise such a right willingly, which leads me to think libertarians don’t want the actual right, they only want the principle of the right. That’s way too ivory-towerish for me. Call me a nanny-stater if you want, but I think seat belt laws are perfectly sound public policy. Very good point. It’s also a fairly illuminating illustration of something I’ve believed for some time - the SDMB tilts quite libertarian, at least compared to the United States (where most of its members hail from.) ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/123 "2005-06-06T14:28:11Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > If nothing else, this thread illustrates how doctrinaire much of libertarianism is. Practically all of us agree that seat belts save lives and money and reduce injury, but there’s a libertarian contingent here that says, “So what if the law saves lives? This is about rights, about choice.” But of course the right we’re talking about here is the right to be flung through a windshield at a high speed. No one would ever exercise such a right willingly, which leads me to think libertarians don’t want the actual right, they only want the principle of the right. That’s way too ivory-towerish for me. Call me a nanny-stater if you want, but I think seat belt laws are perfectly sound public policy. I don’t see _anyone_ here arguing strongly for the right to not wear seatbelts. I think just about everyone here who agrees seatbelts are wise and improve safety would be fine if they made them mandatory in some way which doesn’t involve the police interceeding. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/124 "2005-06-06T14:36:07Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > I’m sorry, did you have an argument tucked in between the slippery slopes and this ludicrous nonargument? Nope, and it sounded just as fucking stupid when she said it… ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/125 "2005-06-06T14:37:24Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Now I see where this bit about all medical is paid by the poor public man is coming from. I hear so much good about the health care system up there. Out of curiosity, where do you think this money comes from in the U.S.? Some comes from private insurers, which raises my premiums. Some comes from government programs like Medicare and Medicaid, which raises my taxes. Some comes from government support for hospitals, which helps defray the cost of the health care that they are required to provide, which raises my taxes. Some is absorbed by hospitals themselves, which raises the cost of other medical treatments for me. Many people here in the U.S. seem to honestly believe they live in a frontier society, in which one person’s actions never impact upon another, short of deliberate violence. This society is a fantasy, and other folks’ refusal to wear seatbelts costs me money. I suppose it would be almost acceptable to me for the government to mandate that hospitals and private insurers have no obligation to pay for or provide care for fools who injure themselves because they chose not to wear a seatbelt, if that was a workable idea. However, shouts of “Nanny State” and silly appeals to an imaginary fundamental right to do whatever you want, all the time just hold no sway with me. If someone could come up with a reasonable trade-off here - some good reason a person might not choose to wear seatbelts - it would be a different matter. But so far, no one has come up with anything more convincing than, “It makes me feel alive.” Well, my wallet shouldn’t suffer for others’ idiocy. People have no right to filch from the public to finance their adolescent rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/126 "2005-06-06T14:39:41Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I don’t see _anyone_ here arguing strongly for the right to not wear seatbelts. I think just about everyone here who agrees seatbelts are wise and improve safety would be fine if they made them mandatory in some way which doesn’t involve the police interceeding. No, amidst the careful composition of your strawmen you seem to have missed the fact that you’re the only one to make that argument (which is one that has some reason behind it, admittedly.) Most of the non-seatbelt crowd are arguing from what **Sal Ammoniac** rightly described as doctrinaire libertarianism; these folks believe in a fundamental right to be stupid, no matter the costs to others. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/127 "2005-06-06T14:44:47Z")
I wear my seat belt. Wearing them became mandatory the year before I learned to drive, so not wearing one has never been an issue. I feel strange not wearing a seat belt, like I’m about to fall out of the car or something. Whether or not wearing seat belts is the law is not an issue to me. I don’t give it a second thought. I don’t give it a first thought, for that matter. I have many complaints regarding the Alberta government, but their curbing my right to Live Free Or Die isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/128 "2005-06-06T14:46:25Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I don’t see _anyone_ here arguing strongly for the right to not wear seatbelts. I think just about everyone here who agrees seatbelts are wise and improve safety would be fine if they made them mandatory in some way which doesn’t involve the police interceeding. No, amidst the careful composition of your strawmen you seem to have missed the fact that you’re the only one to make that argument (which is one that has some reason behind it, admittedly.) Most of the non-seatbelt crowd are arguing from what **Sal Ammoniac** rightly described as doctrinaire libertarianism; these folks believe in a fundamental right to be stupid, no matter the costs to others. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/129 "2005-06-06T14:52:43Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > You don’t think the police have anything better to do than go haring after drivers who might potentially not be wearing a seatbelt? In Calgary, you can practically drive your car buck naked with a big fat joint in one hand and an open beer in the other and not get pulled over, because we have way too few police to bother with “minor” infractions. I (of course) don’t know what enforcement is like everywhere else in North America, but getting all worked up about the remote possibility of it actually being enforced seems like a tempest in a teapot to me. And if you’re not actually doing anything illegal, why do you care if the police ask you where you’re going and what you’re doing? Apparently you haven’t been paying attention. Read up and tell me if these guys have the tme to enforce this stuff and if they really need more leverage against the citizenry. [Thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=318574&highlight=sobriety) [Thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=319037&highlight=police) ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/130 "2005-06-06T14:55:04Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > If someone could come up with a reasonable trade-off here - some good reason a person might not choose to wear seatbelts - it would be a different matter. But so far, no one has come up with anything more convincing than, “It makes me feel alive.” Well, my wallet shouldn’t suffer for others’ idiocy. People have no right to filch from the public to finance their adolescent rebellion. Are you even reading the arguement? Where is someone screaming about the need to drive around unbuckled? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/131 "2005-06-06T15:03:05Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > No, amidst the careful composition of your strawmen you seem to have missed the fact that you’re the only one to make that argument (which is one that has some reason behind it, admittedly.) Most of the non-seatbelt crowd are arguing from what **Sal Ammoniac** rightly described as doctrinaire libertarianism; these folks believe in a fundamental right to be stupid, no matter the costs to others. Who? I’ve scanned the thread, and unless I missed a post (certainly possible), **mhendo** is the only poster saying he doesn’t wear them, and he’s not really saying it’s not a bad idea. His quarrel, as with just about everyone else in my camp, is with the fact that the police are allowed to vigorously enforce it. If they can find another way to make it compulsory, based on the sentiments I seem to be reading, we’d all be pretty accepting of it. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/132 "2005-06-06T15:06:42Z")
Why don’t people buckle up? Because: –They can’t be bothered to take three or four seconds to buckle up when they get in the car. –Being buckled in to the seat makes them feel uncomfortable for one reason or another. No one could possible have a rational reason for not buckling up, just as no one can rationally deny the hazards of smoking. Complaining about safety belt laws makes as little sense as complaining about smoking restrictions in public places. All you have to do is develop the habit of buckling up when you get in the car. That’s all. And sooner or later you’ll get so used to wearing that belt that you won’t even notice it’s on you. It’s not that hard. It’s not nearly as hard as quitting tobacco. I know. I’ve done both. Ironically, many people who don’t buckle will complain about second-hand cigarette smoke. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/133 "2005-06-06T15:08:16Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Me, I don’t see why it’s so important that we have an unlimited right to be personally stupid. I could never care about seatbelt laws because there’s simply no good reason to violate them - all the comparisons to smoking and unhealthy foods are thus nonsense. After all, those things are pleasurable, and probably fine in moderation. But there’s simply no reason not to wear a seatbelt. So why should I care that it’s illegal? The only right being taken away is one with zero value. I see no reason the government should respect this imaginary “right to be stupid.” I suggest that folks who refuse to wear their seatbelts _because_ of seatbelt laws visit a shrink; it’s sad to see someone developmentally arrested during the “pointless teenage rebellion” phase of life. Get it through your head. The arguement isn’t “I want the right to not wear my seatbelt”, it’s “I want the right to not be pulled over without cause”. And yes, the latter right is _absolutely_ worth the additional cost to society. No one ever said the American system was designed to be the cheapest one. We could save a fortune on homeland security if we closed our borders and restricted travel, but that’s just not the way we do things. Cheaper does not always mean better. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/134 "2005-06-06T15:14:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You do not have the right to put yourself in position to not control your vehicle as to avoid a secondary collision after the first impact knocks you out. If I’m on the road, I want all of us to be able to control our vehicles _after_ the first impact so we all might avoid additional impacts. If you aren’t belted, you aren’t going to be able to do this. You’re risking my life as well as your own. This arguement is patently absurd. First off, the likelyhood of a situation like you describe is ridiculously minescule. Second, the driving ability of the average person is no where close to the point where they’d be expected to know how to handle a post-collision maneuver. People don’t even know how to control a skid. Lastly, and most damning to your case, is the fact that airbags, _as mandated by another law_, will completely disable the drivers abilty to control the car after the first crash anyways…seatbelt or not. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/135 "2005-06-06T15:17:38Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Who? I’ve scanned the thread, and unless I missed a post (certainly possible), **mhendo** is the only poster saying he doesn’t wear them, and he’s not really saying it’s not a bad idea. His quarrel, as with just about everyone else in my camp, is with the fact that the police are allowed to vigorously enforce it. If they can find another way to make it compulsory, based on the sentiments I seem to be reading, we’d all be pretty accepting of it. I see no point in discussing this further. You obviously have hardly even glanced at the thread. I’m willing to discuss it with people who have read it; I’m not going to pick out posts for you _from the thread in progress_ just because you’re too lazy to read it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/136 "2005-06-06T15:19:33Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Get it through your head. The arguement isn’t “I want the right to not wear my seatbelt”, it’s “I want the right to not be pulled over without cause”. > > And yes, the latter right is _absolutely_ worth the additional cost to society. No one ever said the American system was designed to be the cheapest one. We could save a fortune on homeland security if we closed our borders and restricted travel, but that’s just not the way we do things. Cheaper does not always mean better. If a cop wants to pull you over, he’ll find an excuse to pull you over. He won’t need seatbelt laws to do it. Unless you’ve got some kind of hard evidence that seatbelt laws resut in massive abuse of police authority, this argument strikes me as pretty tenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/137 "2005-06-06T15:19:59Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Get it through your head. The arguement isn’t “I want the right to not wear my seatbelt”, it’s “I want the right to not be pulled over without cause”. _Your_ argument is not _the_ argument. You have not read the thread if you missed all the folks who don’t wear seatbelts, and all the folks who are upset simply because they think the “nanny state” has no right to make such laws. I’m not sure why you’re casting your own argument - which _only_ you have made - as the one being argued by the rest of the anti-legislation crowd. Reread the thread, or else kindly stop wasting others’ time. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/138 "2005-06-06T15:25:02Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > This arguement is patently absurd. First off, the likelyhood of a situation like you describe is ridiculously minescule. Second, the driving ability of the average person is no where close to the point where they’d be expected to know how to handle a post-collision maneuver. People don’t even know how to control a skid. Lastly, and most damning to your case, is the fact that airbags, _as mandated by another law_, will completely disable the drivers abilty to control the car after the first crash anyways…seatbelt or not. > > Sheesh. I’m not so sure. I can conceive of someone trading paint with me on the freeway. The sideward force may be enough to drive me off the drivers seat without setting off the airbag, and if I’m belted in I still have control of my car. It is an unlikely event, I’ll grant you. But I stand by the notion that post-collision control of a car is going to be better for a belted driver than an unbelted one. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/139 "2005-06-06T15:32:33Z")
> [@MrAlpen](#): > > Although I sort-of said that I didn’t understand your argument, that’s not really true: I did. My difficulty is I don’t understand why you see laws as poor ways of achieving desirable social ends compared with (say) markets, peer pressure or any of the other things that we react to. Now we might be getting somewhere. I’ve been trying very hard to draw a important distinction here. Laws are not inherently bad. I do have a problem when the logical enforcement of said law opens up a Pandora’s Box of civil liberties issues. I strongly believe that people need to be protected from the police as much as they must protect us from ourselves. This law is impossible to enforce without allowing the police carte blanche to pull people over. It could easily be used as the red herring to unwarranted sobriety tests, racial profiling, harassement, searches of private property and a whole range of other activities that the average American would find worrisome. Your other points regarding the safety of the design of American cars are good ones. Cars should be designed with optimal safety in mind. They should be strongly encouraging their users to buckle up and take whatever safety precautions are wise. Laws should even be written to force the manufacturers to make cars that do so. I have no problem with laws being written which put the onus on the car makers to make inherently safe cars which do not allow for “unsafe” operation by choice. It’s a whole-nother thread. How the US car makers have enough money to lobby against being forced to make these changes however. Instead, the laws are passed to regulate us instead of the car maker. This is patently stupid on it’s face of course since the enforcement of the latter is much easier, cheaper and more failsafe. Perhaps you people who are chirping about the “costs to society” should be mad at the companies whcih make the cars that can be driven unbuckled, for profits sake mind you, instead of the people driving those cars. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379/140 "2005-06-06T15:35:24Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’m not so sure. I can conceive of someone trading paint with me on the freeway. The sideward force may be enough to drive me off the drivers seat without setting off the airbag, and if I’m belted in I still have control of my car. > > It is an unlikely event, I’ll grant you. But I stand by the notion that post-collision control of a car is going to be better for a belted driver than an unbelted one. Yes, I’m sure there is a situation in which your arguement would be vaild. However as an arguement for legislating seatbelt use, it’s even less persuasive than those who argue for the unlikely cases where _wearing_ the seatbelt makes driving unsafe and/or puts them and other at risk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-many-people-still-dont-believe-in-wearing-seatbelts/306379.md?page=8)