# So much for fighting ignorance... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 27, 2000, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936 "2000-11-27T23:24:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/1 "2000-11-27T23:24:47Z")
I started a thread about [spoofing IPs](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=48256), and of course, manhattan locked it up. Even though it is a perfectly legal practice in keeping with the right to privacy all Americans enjoy and an especially important feature of open protocol we call the internet which all people should be aware of, apparently this is one bit of ignorance Straight Dopers will have to put up with. I’m surprised it took 4 full hours for the mods to lock the thread! This has been a test of the hypocrisy network. This was only a test. Authority has to maintain ignorance on matters which enable them to maintain their authority! Oy vey! What a world, what a world. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/2 "2000-11-27T23:39:10Z")
Well, I cheerfully admit to having no clue whatsoever as to what “spoofing an IP” entails, other than it seems to involve something that Manhattan disapproves of, but it’s Mannie’s job to know about this kind of thing and to disapprove of stuff on my behalf, so I’d like to be the first to get my vote in on the side of the mods and the SDMB administration. Whatever. [making sure chad is ALL the way out] Ciao! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/3 "2000-11-27T23:39:15Z")
Please be advised that I don’t care. Hugs and Kisses! -manhattan ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/4 "2000-11-27T23:40:30Z")
Oh, please. Is it so hard to understand that, in the light of the recent one-man invasion to these boards, an open discussion about spoofing IP’s is somewhat undesirable? If it IS that hard for you, then there is indeed plenty of ignorance left to be fought. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/5 "2000-11-27T23:45:26Z")
In locking the thread, MANHATTAN explained: > [@](#): > > Since we at the SDMB rely on good IP info in our never-ending battle against sock puppets, and because I can think of no legitimate reason to spoof a site, I am closing this thread. What don’t you understand about this? 1. This Board, perhaps even more than other Boards, deals a lot with bullshit trolls and sock-puppets who exist solely to disrupt the Board and piss off and annoy the rest of us. 2. The only way the Board management can track who posts what and from where is to trace a poster’s IP information. 3. Spoofing IPs obviously interferes with the Board management’s ability to identify and shut down trolls and sock-puppets. 4. Despite this (to me self-evident) problem in starting a “how-to” thread on spoofing, you not only started the thread, you’re now complaining about having it shut down. So let’s take a look: > [@](#): > > Even though it is a perfectly legal practice in keeping with the right to privacy all Americans enjoy . . . Debatable. It is not in all cases “perfectly legal” to conceal who you are or to mislead people about where you post from; in some cases, it’s fraudulent. And let’s not forget that there are some things that may be “perfectly legal” that are not “perfectly honest” and that dishonesty is rarely to be encouraged, despite the legalities. > [@](#): > > . . . and an especially important feature of open protocol we call the internet which all people should be aware of, You did not start a thread to make people aware of spoofing; you started a thread asking for advice on how you can spoofe. If you want to educate people on spoofing or debate whether it’s a good idea (and if so, when), then start another thread. But don’t now misrepresent the content of the thread you started that was closed. > [@](#): > > . . . apparently this is one bit of ignorance Straight Dopers will have to put up with. There’s lots of “ignorance” we Dopers will “have to put up with” if by that you mean “get advice on how to do illegal, immoral, or stupid things.” Guess what? Start a thread on how to build a bomb or attract a five-year-old and they’ll shut that down too. Then you can whine about how they are perpetuating ignorance on those subjects as well. > [@](#): > > This has been a test of the hypocrisy network. This was only a test. A pledge to battle ignorance does not translate to an obligation to disseminate (or allow the dissemination) of information on all topics at all times. Come on; use your common sense. > [@](#): > > Authority has to maintain ignorance on matters which enable them to maintain their authority! They are not “maintaining your ignorance;” they are simply declining to lessen it. If you want to learn all about spoofing, do it somewhere else. This message board has no obligation to enlighten people on the best ways to sabotage it or to make it more difficult to maintain. I’m getting so tired of all the bitching and moaning about how things are done around here – especially over things like this, that are manifestly done correctly and for obvious reasons. Buck the fuck up. Cripes. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Silver\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Fire)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/6 "2000-11-27T23:47:51Z")
Hugs and kisses to you too, Manny. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/7 "2000-11-28T00:12:08Z")
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: **Jodi** , you rule. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/8 "2000-11-28T00:17:02Z")
And hugs and kisses to _you_, andros. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/9 "2000-11-28T00:23:18Z")
There’s an old credo in stand-up comedy that goes something like this: You need to separate yourself from your act. If the crowd isn’t laughing, it’s not because that they don’t like _you_, it’s because they don’t like your _act_. We have too many posters on this board that can’t separate themselves from their posts. Thus, they act personally offended when a thread of theirs in closed. If you want to question our actions, that’s Fine. That’s one of the reasons we have the Pit. You chose to act like some thug just snatched your purse. It makes you look petty. As others have explained quite well, manny was perfectly within bounds to close that thread. Suck it up. [Edited by Alphagene on 11-27-2000 at 06:26 PM] ---
**Author:** ![dragonfly98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7bcc69/32.png) [@dragonfly98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dragonfly98)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/10 "2000-11-28T00:55:06Z")
Hey watch it. i just happen to like sockpuppets. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/11 "2000-11-28T01:12:06Z")
If you REALLY need the info-perhaps you could have someone e-mail you? ---
**Author:** ![Bobort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bobort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobort)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/12 "2000-11-28T02:09:02Z")
FWIW, I think your thread was the victim of an unfortunate mistake in terminology. It seems as though you were asking about proxying, which is altogether different from IP spoofing. IP spoofing is a practice that has virtually no non-malicious use, and it was perfectly reasonable for **manhattan** to close the thread for that reason, i.e. the thread was being hijacked in that direction. I got the impression (though I’m not entirely sure) that you were trying to ask about a different, benign topic. If that’s the case, perhaps you should review the appropriate terminology and try again with a clearer OP. ---
**Author:** ![tshirts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@tshirts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tshirts)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/13 "2000-11-28T05:06:03Z")
I kind of liked your thread. I’d never heard the term and yet it appears in all those terminology lists, like the Jargon File. Finding the lists was useful in itself for the next odd term I run across. Your thread did run its course, however, before they locked it, so you shouldn’t feel too bad. And it’s not deleted, so they didn’t find it that inflamatory. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/14 "2000-11-28T16:28:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > What don’t you understand about this? > > 1. This Board, perhaps even more than other Boards, deals a lot with bullshit trolls and sock-puppets who exist solely to disrupt the Board and piss off and annoy the rest of us. ya… > [@](#): > > 1. The only way the Board management can track who posts what and from where is to trace a poster’s IP information. I disagree. Tracking who posts is easy. Tracking people from where they post from just discriminates against people who are either a) too ignorant to avoid giving out this info, and b) more importantly, those people who don’t have a static IP to begin with. > [@](#): > > 1. Spoofing IPs obviously interferes with the Board management’s ability to identify and shut down trolls and sock-puppets. Well, welcome to the open protocol. May I take your coat? > [@](#): > > It is not in all cases “perfectly legal” to conceal who you are or to mislead people about where you post from; in some cases, it’s fraudulent. WTF? It is perfectly legal to do this on-line, and always has been. If I started a thread about asking what steps I would have to go through to get a gun permit in Massachusetts, would it be locked up because it is illegal to shoot people? No. Yes, guns point both ways. Suck it up. > [@](#): > > And let’s not forget that there are some things that may be “perfectly legal” that are not “perfectly honest” and that dishonesty is rarely to be encouraged, despite the legalities. Having an open protocol is somehow inherently dishonest? The reality is you never for sure know where the connect request you get is _ultimately_ coming from. It is dishonest to maintain the illusion that you _can_ know. My company spoofs all outgoing IPs such that I share one with 500 other people. Is that dishonest? > [@](#): > > If you want to educate people on spoofing or debate whether it’s a good idea (and if so, when), then start another thread. But don’t now misrepresent the content of the thread you started that was closed. I really could care less. I wanted the info for my own personal gratification. > [@](#): > > Start a thread on how to build a bomb or attract a five-year-old and they’ll shut that down too. Yeah, well, those things **are** illegal. > [@](#): > > use your common sense. Me? Common sense?? Jodi! After all our talks you know me better than than. > [@](#): > > They are not “maintaining your ignorance;” they are simply declining to lessen it. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alphagene \* > You chose to act like some thug just snatched your purse. It makes you look petty. I know. I felt the need to complain anyway. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bobort \* > I think your thread was the victim of an unfortunate mistake in terminology. It seems as though you were asking about proxying, which is altogether different from IP spoofing. IP spoofing is a practice that has virtually no non-malicious use, and it was perfectly reasonable for **manhattan** to close the thread for that reason Well, as I tried to explain in the thread, I was trying to use the original use of the word as applied to networking, not the more common watered-down usage which includes faking e-mail headers (something I don’t approve of), etc. Yes, I did mean, specifically, using proxies to spoof the IP. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/15 "2000-11-28T16:47:13Z")
Jesus H. mullaney said: > [@](#): > > I disagree. Tracking who posts is easy. You disagree? Well, last I checked, you weren’t a moderator or administrator here. What, exactly, is your background in operating a web message board? You know, so we can judge your expertise in telling us how “easy” it is to do our jobs… ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/16 "2000-11-28T17:30:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > > > [@](#): > > > > Tracking who posts is easy. > > You disagree? Well, last I checked, you weren’t a moderator or administrator here. What, exactly, is your background in operating a web message board? You know, so we can judge your expertise in telling us how “easy” it is to do our jobs… Well, gee. Every post made by jmullaney has been made by… wait, don’t tell me… er… jmullaney? Whoo. That was a tough one. Well, that’s enough mental gymnastics today. (ok, but once more with feeling: we are just defining “who” differently. for all you know, i’m 5 different people all using the handle jmullaney, right?) * * * “Now I’d like that. But that ain’t the truth. The truth is: you’re the weak, and _I’m_ the tyranny of evil men. But I’m trying, Ringo…” – Jules, Pulp Fiction\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/17 "2000-11-28T17:46:36Z")
Joel, you’re not stupid, so it annoys me to see you act that way. You know perfectly well that we use IP tracking for socks and boomerang trolls; you’re quibbling semantics to avoid the actual argument Jodi made. If R\_Dawg87654 posts, yes, we know it’s R\_Dawg87654; what we want to determine is if the troll behind the screename (it’s the _person_ who’s banned, not the SN) is the same troll who was R\_Dawg1 - 87653. IP information is helpful in figuring this out. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/18 "2000-11-28T17:54:10Z")
jmullaney said: > [@](#): > > Well, gee. Every post made by jmullaney has been made by… wait, don’t tell me… er… jmullaney? > > Whoo. That was a tough one. Well, that’s enough mental gymnastics today. Yes. You’ve apparently tired yourself out without even getting to the right answer. Now go lie down and rest. No more mental strain for you today. > [@](#): > > (ok, but once more with feeling: we are just defining “who” differently. for all you know, i’m 5 different people all using the handle jmullaney, right?) Wrong. We’re not concerned with 5 guys posting as jmullaney (well, we are, but that’s not what we’re talking about here). We’re concerned with one asshole posting as 5 guys. Get it? ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/19 "2000-11-28T18:09:23Z")
JMULLANEY says: > [@](#): > > Tracking people from where they post from just discriminates against people who are either a) too ignorant to avoid giving out this info, and b) more importantly, those people who don’t have a static IP to begin with. Wait a sec. Why do you assume that people who take no extraordinary means to disguise who they are or where they post from just “too ignorant to avoid giving out this info”? Maybe they see no reason to obscure such information. Surely that is far more likely. In any event, this board does not “discriminate” against people based on their IP; it “discriminates” against people based on the fact that they act like jerks. Tracing the IP allows the mods to determine, in many cases, whether or not this week’s asshole is in fact last week’s asshole with a new screen name. This to me is obvious. So why are you acting like it isn’t? > [@](#): > > WTF? It is perfectly legal to do this (spoofe) on-line, and always has been. As I have already said, spoofing may _not_ be illegal if it is done to perpetuate a fraud. What part of _this_ do you not understand? And as I _also_ already said, legality and honesty are not the same. Or did you just skip that part? > [@](#): > > Me? Common sense?? Jodi! After all our talks you know me better than that. Yes, I do. But I have a dream that, some shining day, every head will be removed from every ass. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936/20 "2000-11-28T18:25:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaudere \* > If R\_Dawg87654 posts, yes, we know it’s R\_Dawg87654; what we want to determine is if the troll behind the screename (it’s the _person_ who’s banned, not the SN) is the same troll who was R\_Dawg1 - 87653. IP information is helpful in figuring this out. I understand your position. If I had entitled the thread “how can you get away with trolling and make the mod’s life a living hell” I wouldn’t be defending my position. And I understand that some other forums, for better or worse, place bans based on the IP (their loss) which could potentially ban not only the troll but, in my case at least, 500 of his closest friends and that is the loss of the people hosting that forum. Unmoderated forums (ye olde usenet comes to mind) are total spamfests and all the killfiles in the world won’t help you. The world before caller ID wasn’t pretty, but people can still block their info from going out if they wish because of privacy concerns. Here too, there may be times people do not want to publish their IP to the computer they ultimately want to connect with for perfectly innocuous reasons. But, I’ll find the info elsewhere if I can recall where to look. You all are doing good work in a bad situation with a fair and balanced approach and I’ve never been so impressed with a forum. Keep it up. Operation Mayhem is under control. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-fighting-ignorance/42936.md?page=2)