# So much for the HRC... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 9, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365 "2004-05-09T23:47:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/21 "2004-05-10T12:56:03Z")
Here’s a [link](http://www.tgforum.com/tgffree.html) to the article in question. Probably only be good for one week; after that I’ll post a new one to a copy on my own web space. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/22 "2004-05-10T13:44:07Z")
The “T” question is always a toughie. Many, (most?) aren’t gay and once they begin transitioning, they cut their ties with the gay community. When a group of folks here in Texarkana started a local chapter of the Stonewall Democrats, none of the transsexual women in town wanted to participate because they identify as straight women and didn’t want to in a gay organization. However, straight bigots often think all gay men want to be women and see no difference between a nelly boi and a transsexual woman. So it makes sense to ally to fight the prejudice. Unfortuantely it makes a sometimes uneasy alliance. People who are both transgendered and gay have an even tougher time finding a place in the alphabet. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/23 "2004-05-10T13:58:32Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > However, straight bigots often think all gay men want to be women and see no difference between a nelly boi and a transsexual woman. So it makes sense to ally to fight the prejudice. Unfortuantely it makes a sometimes uneasy alliance. Yup. A friend of mine transitioned from lesbian to straight male, and he feels _completely_ lost. He doesn’t think gay and feminist lobbies are interested in supporting him, but really, where else does he have to turn? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/24 "2004-05-10T14:21:02Z")
> [@Rysler](#): > > Yup. A friend of mine transitioned from lesbian to straight male, and he feels _completely_ lost. He doesn’t think gay and feminist lobbies are interested in supporting him, but really, where else does he have to turn? Not to hijack, but since you mentioned the feminist lobbies-from what I’ve witnessed, more than a few feminists seem to be downright hostile to transgenders-calling FtMs “traitors” and MtFs “pseudo-women”, who can never be “true feminists”. You know, you’d think groups that are around to fight discrimination would fight it in ALL instances, but apparently, that’s not the case. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/25 "2004-05-10T14:27:19Z")
> [@Rysler](#): > > Yup. A friend of mine transitioned from lesbian to straight male, and he feels _completely_ lost. He doesn’t think gay and feminist lobbies are interested in supporting him, but really, where else does he have to turn? Really, nowhere. Although FTMs and MTFs exist in about equal numbers, there are far more organizations for MTFs than FTMs. And a lot of FTMs would be uncomfortable or just plain bored in an MTF-centric organization – especially since a lot of their meetings are little more than makeover parties. It’s reasons like this why we need the honest support from gay and lesbian groups, and why HRC’s ongoing betrayal is so despicable. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/26 "2004-05-10T14:44:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Not to hijack, but since you mentioned the feminist lobbies-from what I’ve witnessed, more than a few feminists seem to be downright hostile to transgenders-calling FtMs “traitors” and MtFs “pseudo-women”, who can never be “true feminists”. Yes, we can thank Janice Raymond (author of _The Transsexual Empire_) for that little bit of hostility. I’ve run into quite a few radical feminists who think that I’m “giving in to patriarchal constructions of gender” by choosing reassignment. A significant portion of the feminist movement considers MtFs to be victims of patriarchy and treats us with pity at best and hostility at worst, and in any case as “mained men” rather than women. FtMs are considered to be women who have been tricked into reassignment to gain “male privilege” and are also victims of patriarchy. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/27 "2004-05-10T15:04:27Z")
**Guinastasia** : > [@](#): > > Not to hijack, but since you mentioned the feminist lobbies-from what I’ve witnessed, more than a few feminists seem to be downright hostile to transgenders-calling FtMs “traitors” and MtFs “pseudo-women”, who can never be “true feminists”. > > You know, you’d think groups that are around to fight discrimination would fight it in ALL instances, but apparently, that’s not the case. I think a theorist by the name of Jan Raymond had a lot to do with that. Google that name + transsexual. There are dissenting opinions, but in a movement devoted to social change there’s a tendency to look askance at a process that looks to many of them like a personal rather than social solution. Feminists tend to either believe that sexual diffs, aside from the most explicitly structural ones, are socio-political rather than biological in nature (i.e., “you folks should change society to accept you as you are in the body you were born in, instead of accepting society’s definitions of what it means to be a man/woman”, etc), or else believe that there are fundamental differences in personality and character and nature between the sexes but that reassignment surgery only deals with the superficials (i.e., “you’re now a mutilated man with a surgically composed imitation of a clitoris and vagina, that hardly makes you one of us” / or “oh, so now you ‘pass’ and can participate in the patriarchy as a male, so you don’t have to deal with women’s oppression any more, ought we to applaud?”) That’s oversimplistic, but the groupthink of any political social movement tends to veer towards the oversimplistic. Get a compelling feminist theory piece published as a trans, and one may precipitate a movement-wide reevaluation (at least to the point of opening up some ambivalence and room for dissent), but show up in person as an individual expecting individuals in feminist orgs to behave like individuals and you’re more likely to experience them as a group that has already adopted a party plank against your inclusion. Not due (as I said) to anything intrinsic to feminism, but to the groupthink tendencies of most members of any political-social organization. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/28 "2004-05-10T15:39:54Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Not to hijack, but since you mentioned the feminist lobbies-from what I’ve witnessed, more than a few feminists seem to be downright hostile to transgenders-calling FtMs “traitors” and MtFs “pseudo-women”, who can never be “true feminists”. Yes, I was called that by a “feminist” member of this very Board. Let’s face it, we’re the dark-skinned “niggers” of the gay rights movement. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/29 "2004-05-10T15:52:19Z")
The others are right about the Q for questioning, which is a major thing in gay youth organizations since sexuality is still something you’re trying to work out even at my age (20) 🙂 Queer is an umbrella term for all the alphabet soup, but one rarely used in official circumstances because it offends certain groups of people in theory covered by it. I like it, but such is life. About the transgender/gay rights link up, I think another factor is one briefly touched on in one or two posts. Many transgender folk, although straight in relation to their true identity, appear to the world as gay before they transition. I know multiple transgendered people who, due to the education and awareness out there about homosexuality and the _lack_ of education about gender identity issues, came out as gay several years before coming out as transgender. Thus, they often have ties of friendship with some people in the gay community. It’s unfortunate and ridiculous what the HRC is doing, and I can guarantee they’re not seeing any more of my money til they change this stupid and discriminatory policy. Just pathetic. That’s all it is. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/30 "2004-05-10T18:08:25Z")
> [@](#): > > (think Divine, or RuPaul, although I have no idea if either were actually gay) Both gay. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/31 "2004-05-10T18:51:57Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Both gay. True story—some very naive reporter once asked Divine if he was gay, and Divine deadpanned, “Are you kidding? I’ve got a wife and five kids in Idaho!” ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/32 "2004-05-10T19:36:52Z")
Actually “queer” is an exceptable letter of the alphabet soup that is the LGBT community (although when citing LGBTQ, it does refer to “questioning”). Queer is, on the one hand, a handy catch-all phrase as a substitute for the whole alphabet soup thing (although a lot of people still find the word offensive, even though it’s been reclaimed by the community); on the other hand, there is an entire new subculture (mostly youth) who self-identify as “queer” - not gay, not lesbian, not bi, not trans, just queer. I just love diversity, don’t you? Makes things _much_ more interesting… 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/33 "2004-05-10T20:14:49Z")
> [@](#): > > on the other hand, there is an entire new subculture (mostly youth) who self-identify as “queer” - not gay, not lesbian, not bi, not trans, just queer. Me included 🙂 Anyway I realize that downstairs I still have the check I was gonna mail to the HRC. I plan to tear it up, but I do wanna contribute that $25 to a national organization doing similar work. Any recommendations? I was thinking NGLTF, but whats their policy on trans-issues? ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/34 "2004-05-10T21:52:10Z")
> [@Priam](#): > > \Anyway I realize that downstairs I still have the check I was gonna mail to the HRC. I plan to tear it up, but I do wanna contribute that $25 to a national organization doing similar work. Any recommendations? I was thinking NGLTF, but whats their policy on trans-issues? National Stonewall Democrats officially supports a transgender-inclusive ENDA, per Dave Noble, their Executive Director. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/35 "2004-05-10T21:54:49Z")
> [@Priam](#): > > Me included 🙂 > > Anyway I realize that downstairs I still have the check I was gonna mail to the HRC. I plan to tear it up, but I do wanna contribute that $25 to a national organization doing similar work. Any recommendations? I was thinking NGLTF, but whats their policy on trans-issues? Before you tear it up, I’d take a picture of it or scan it, and send it with the letter I’d send with it explaining WHY they’re now not getting said check. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/36 "2004-05-10T22:06:32Z")
The real annoyance is that HRC now claims to support a trans-inclusive ENDA. The problem is, they don’t. As far as we can tell, from talking to other principals in the lobbying effort, ENDA is simply **lying** about their support for a trans-inclusive ENDA. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/37 "2004-05-10T22:07:51Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > ENDA is simply **lying** about their support for a trans-inclusive ENDA. Ugh. That should be “HRC is simply lying…” ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/38 "2004-05-10T22:14:03Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > National Stonewall Democrats officially supports a transgender-inclusive ENDA, per Dave Noble, their Executive Director. I’m looking for a more-or-less nonpartisan group, since I’m not particularly in love with Dems or Repubs right now. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/39 "2004-05-11T00:08:05Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > I realize this is probably a stupid question, but I really don’t know, so please dispel my ignorance on this issue. > > If people think transgender is simply a different way to be gay, then why is the transgendered-rights movement so closely linked to the gay-rights movement? > > Robin Because it’s so much simpler to just have 3 categories- straight men, straight women, and other. Oh, I suppose one could try to actually understand the issues involved, but it’s so much easier just to label everyone and pack them neatly into nice little boxes. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365/40 "2004-05-11T00:08:07Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > I realize this is probably a stupid question, but I really don’t know, so please dispel my ignorance on this issue. > > If people think transgender is simply a different way to be gay, then why is the transgendered-rights movement so closely linked to the gay-rights movement? > > Robin Because it’s so much simpler to just have 3 categories- straight men, straight women, and other. Oh, I suppose one could try to actually understand the issues involved, but it’s so much easier just to label everyone and pack them neatly into nice little boxes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-hrc/244365.md?page=3)