# So much for the idea that only Muslims threaten violence over images they don't like **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931 "2008-04-11T19:14:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/21 "2008-04-12T09:34:16Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] Is there a link to the drawing anywhere? [/QUOTE] Here’s a brief video about it: [Religion, Flesh and Power](http://www.the-two-malcontents.com/2008/04/07/alfred-hrdlickas-erotic-jesus-sparks-art-debate-in-austria/) The site that it’s posted on is a blog, but I haven’t really kicked around on there to see what sort of bias there may be. There’s sound, but only music and the images are rather hard to make out / on the smaller side. If you’re not sure though, please tread at your own peril. I don’t won’t this to be considered not work safe for anyone, although I personally can’t imagine that it would be. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/22 "2008-04-12T12:06:02Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] If it was just a nude chocolate Jesus at a hotel it would get a letter. [QUOTE] Mmm… sacrilicious. (Dope rule #29: ignore a potential Simpsons reference at your own peril). ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/23 "2008-04-12T12:50:32Z")
If it was in a privately owned museum, its display would be nobody else’s business. If it were a public museum, then maybe one could debate the display of religiously-offensive material at taxpayer expense, tho I wonder if Europeans may be more OK with that that Americans are. BUT it was a Church-sponsored museum, so I give a boo & hiss to the blockhead that OK’d it in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/24 "2008-04-12T18:53:07Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] [Furor Over Last Supper Orgy Drawing](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/04/11/international/i104156D51.DTL&tsp=1) Some Christians have threatened to come to Vienna and blow up museums after a museum there shows an artwork depicting Jesus and the disciples having an orgy on the table where the Last Supper was served. So much for the idea that only Muslims threaten to do such things… [/QUOTE] Say, I’m surprised the article includes no image of the painting. Anybody got a link? (Just so we can judge its artistic quality, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/25 "2008-04-12T19:35:17Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] If it was in a privately owned museum, its display would be nobody else’s business. If it were a public museum, then maybe one could debate the display of religiously-offensive material at taxpayer expense, tho I wonder if Europeans may be more OK with that that Americans are. BUT it was a Church-sponsored museum, so I give a boo & hiss to the blockhead that OK’d it in the first place. [/QUOTE] I agree…that work never should have been hung in a Cathedral museum. Of course, I think threats of violence are completely uncalled for, but the Cardinal showed very bad judgement to begin with. IMO, this is a completely different situation from a newspaper printing the cartoons that offended Muslims…if a newspaper printed a copy of this etching to show what the furor was about, I would support that 100%, but I don’t blame the Church in the least for not wanting to display it, and they shouldn’t feel as though they have to. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/26 "2008-04-12T20:39:47Z")
Trying to draw an equivalence between some anonymous posting from a kook on an internet chat board and fatwas issued by high-level religious figures is kinda stretching it, don’t you think? The Muhammed cartoons spawned murders, protests and riots, the cartoonists had to go into hiding, and Canadians who published the images are hauled up in front of human rights commissions. On the other side, we have a second hand account of something someone saw an anonymous person post on a chat board. Yeah, they’re exactly equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/27 "2008-04-12T20:51:50Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] Response that “a real Christian” wouldn’t do this and therefore those doing the threatening aren’t real christians in 5…4…3… -Joe [/QUOTE] Can you show me in the bible where Christ advocates terrorism when offended? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/28 "2008-04-13T02:15:33Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] Fifth paragraph: [/QUOTE] So your entire argument rests on the word of the person who’s trying to play the victim. Can you link to these web postings? Can you give some evidence that they exist? Why shouldn’t we assume that Kaufmann is lying? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/29 "2008-04-13T02:41:00Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Trying to draw an equivalence between some anonymous posting from a kook on an internet chat board and fatwas issued by high-level religious figures is kinda stretching it, don’t you think? The Muhammed cartoons spawned murders, protests and riots, the cartoonists had to go into hiding, and Canadians who published the images are hauled up in front of human rights commissions. On the other side, we have a second hand account of something someone saw an anonymous person post on a chat board. Yeah, they’re exactly equivalent. [/QUOTE] Not only high-level _religious_ figures, high-level religious figures that _govern_, Julius II-style. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/30 "2008-04-13T03:02:41Z")
All religious fanaticism is the same. Christian fanatics have never been any better than Muslim fanatics, they just tend to currently live in better social conditions and and lack as much of the desperation and cultural pressures which generate fanatcism. Any religion is vulnerable to it. The specific theology has nothing to do with it. Theologically, Islam is no better or worse than Christianity, it’s just being reflected in more culturally generated fanaticism at the moment. Christianity still obviously is not free of it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/31 "2008-04-13T17:49:56Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] All religious fanaticism is the same. Christian fanatics have never been any better than Muslim fanatics, they just tend to currently live in better social conditions and and lack as much of the desperation and cultural pressures which generate fanatcism. Any religion is vulnerable to it. The specific theology has nothing to do with it. Theologically, Islam is no better or worse than Christianity, it’s just being reflected in more culturally generated fanaticism at the moment. Christianity still obviously is not free of it, though. [/QUOTE] I don’t buy that. There are plenty of desperately poor Catholics in Africs and South America, and they’re not blowing people up in the name of religion. Tibet is not exactly having a grand time of it, yet I don’t see the Dali Lama supplying his people with suicide vests. The world is full of poor, abused, and disadvantaged people. Of all religions. Islam seems unique in its response. For that matter, claiming that it’s always poverty and desperation that drives this behaviour doesn’t seem right either. The 9/11 hijackers were reasonably well off. Bin Laden is rich, as are his closest people. The Middle East is awash in money. There is plenty of Islamic violence being homegrown inside wealthy western countries. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/32 "2008-04-13T17:56:55Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] I don’t buy that. There are plenty of desperately poor Catholics in Africs and South America, and they’re not blowing people up in the name of religion. Tibet is not exactly having a grand time of it, yet I don’t see the Dali Lama supplying his people with suicide vests. The world is full of poor, abused, and disadvantaged people. Of all religions. Islam seems unique in its response. For that matter, claiming that it’s always poverty and desperation that drives this behaviour doesn’t seem right either. The 9/11 hijackers were reasonably well off. Bin Laden is rich, as are his closest people. The Middle East is awash in money. There is plenty of Islamic violence being homegrown inside wealthy western countries. [/QUOTE] Most of the desperately poor Muslims in the world don’t resort to violence either. Even most Palestinian apartheid victims don’t resort to violence. There is nothing special about Christian theology which makes it less prone to fanaticism. You only have to look at the majority of Christian history to know that. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/33 "2008-04-13T17:57:19Z")
Have pissed off Christians done anything like 9/11,or the Madrid bombings,.or the London 7/11,or the Bali bombings in modern times? And please spare me the “In historical times the Christians did so and so tripe” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/34 "2008-04-13T18:02:24Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life] Have pissed off Christians done anything like 9/11,or the Madrid bombings,.or the London 7/11,or the Bali bombings in modern times? And please spare me the “In historical times the Christians did so and so tripe” [/QUOTE] They blow up abortion clinics and gay nightclubs. They threaten to blow up museums over paintings they don’t like. They even waged a war of genocide and systematic rape against Muslims in only the last decade. Oh, and it isn’t necessary to hijack planes when you have an air force and guided missiles, so that’s kind of a specious point. Christians have so much military power they don’t _need_ to use guerilla tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/35 "2008-04-13T18:17:53Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Most of the desperately poor Muslims in the world don’t resort to violence either. Even most Palestinian apartheid victims don’t resort to violence. There is nothing special about Christian theology which makes it less prone to fanaticism. You only have to look at the majority of Christian history to know that. [/QUOTE] Yes of course the poor hard done by Palastinians are well known for not murdering civilians at random whether they be Israelis or their own. Apartheid is about discriminating against people on grounds of race or religion,not discriminating against people who launch rockets and send suicide bombers into civilian areas to murder innocent civilians. Sorry your "desperately poor Palestinian Apartheid victims "doesn’t jerk any tears from this non Jew and non Israeli. Would these Palestinian victims who dont resort to violence be in any way those same Palestinians who were seen celebrating 9/11 on film,the same Palestinians who I actually have met who celebrate every successful suicide bomb attack on Israeli civilians ,who celebrate every random rocket attack on Israeli civilian towns ,who celebrate publically and noisely every time a Brit,American,Canadian or any westerner military or civilian gets killed in Afghan or Iraq? Sorry me old mucker but I feel nothing but contempt for them,I wonder why? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/36 "2008-04-13T18:20:24Z")
Let’s not forget the “Troubles” in Northern Ireland. Terrorist bombing tactics were S.O.P. for decades. Ever heard of [Bloody Friday](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Belfast_Bomb_Blitz)? That was 1972. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/37 "2008-04-13T18:36:48Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] All religious fanaticism is the same. Christian fanatics have never been any better than Muslim fanatics, they just tend to currently live in better social conditions and and lack as much of the desperation and cultural pressures which generate fanatcism. Any religion is vulnerable to it. The specific theology has nothing to do with it. Theologically, Islam is no better or worse than Christianity, it’s just being reflected in more culturally generated fanaticism at the moment. Christianity still obviously is not free of it, though. [/QUOTE] I’m usually the first to note that culture has as much or more to do with a response than the specifics of religious doctrine - but saying that the specific theology has _nothing_ to do with it way overstates the case, so much so that the point tends to be lost. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/38 "2008-04-13T18:50:53Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Let’s not forget the “Troubles” in Northern Ireland. Terrorist bombing tactics were S.O.P. for decades. Ever heard of [Bloody Friday](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Belfast_Bomb_Blitz)? That was 1972. [/QUOTE] I think Diogenes is right…when you have religion tied up with political power, it dose tend to breed fanaticism, regardless of the religion, and that fanaticism can lead to bad behavior. However, that’s not really relevant to the OP. The OP is specifically talking about violence use as censorship of offensive images. In this particular case, Sam Stone is on the money, IMO, when he says that the reaction can in no way be compared to the reaction to the Danish cartoons. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/39 "2008-04-13T22:19:02Z")
So if the Mohammed cartoons had depicted the Prophet and his friends joyfully buggering each other in a grotesque parody of some occasion that Muslims find deeply moving, and the worst response from the Islamic world had been some kooks and nuts posting shit on a website, the two situations would be exactly analogous. But hey, let’s not let inconvenient facts get in the way of a little Christian-bashing. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931/40 "2008-04-13T22:51:20Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life] Yes of course the poor hard done by Palastinians are well known for not murdering civilians at random whether they be Israelis or their own. [/quote] It may come as a shock to you but most of them don’t. > [@](#): > > Apartheid is about discriminating against people on grounds of race or religion,not discriminating against people who launch rockets and send suicide bombers into civilian areas to murder innocent civilians. The guerilla tactics and the terrorism are a _result_ of the apartheid. Without the apartheid, there would be no terrorism. [quote] Sorry your "desperately poor Palestinian Apartheid victims "doesn’t jerk any tears from this non Jew and non Israeli.[/.quote] Obviously, if you think of Palestinans as subhumans, there’s no point trying to talk to you. > [@](#): > > Sorry me old mucker but I feel nothing but contempt for them,I wonder why? I guess you lack either education or humanity. I’m not going to waste my time trying to enlighten you. You’re clearly very comfortable with your predudices. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-much-for-the-idea-that-only-muslims-threaten-violence-over-images-they-dont-like/444931.md?page=3)