# So my roommate is getting Free Money, what the heck? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 5, 2005, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811 "2005-04-05T07:00:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/61 "2005-04-06T01:01:51Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > A week or so later, your own bank calls you to tell you that the check you paid in is bogus and will not actually be credited to your account I don’y know how it works in The Kingdom of Butter but here in Squaresville a bank will not let you draw against the proceeds of a deposited cheque (check) until it has been cleared. ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/62 "2005-04-06T01:21:23Z")
> [@Mr. Excellent](#): > > Through the Remarkable Power of Moms ™, I should imagine. Do you really think your mom couldn’t forge your signature? I know mine can - it comes in handy when the occasional old check comes in while I’m at school. She can just write “Pay to the order of Mr. Excellent’s Mom”, sign it “Mr. Excellent”, and then sign her name. Easily done. At the bank I worked for, your mother would not be able to do that. Say you got a check for any amount…it could be 20.00, it could be 20,000.00, and your mother wrote “Pay to the Order of Mr. Excellent’s Mom,” then signed your name and signed hers. If she showed up at the bank without you, we would not cash it for her. You, Mr. Excellent, would have to be physically present for us to do that. If you’re not there, we wouldn’t cash it, no exceptions. I guess some banks work differently, but mine didn’t. We were too afraid of fraud cases. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/63 "2005-04-06T02:32:17Z")
> [@galt](#): > > So **Random** , let’s assume a situation where the 3rd party (mom in this case) is **not** the agent of the person the check is made out to. Here are some pertinent questions: > > 1. Is it possible for person B to deposit a check made out to person A into person A’s account without the knowledge, cooperation, or endorsement of person A, and without having the check endorsed in any way (i.e. nobody endorses it)? Assuming B knows A’s account information, yes. Either a night deposit box or wire transfer would work well. An over the counter deposit probably would work, too, but that would depend on individual bank policies. > [@galt](#): > > 1. Is it possible for person B to deposit a check made out to person A into person A’s account without the knowledge, cooperation, or endorsement of person A, by signing their own name (B) to the back of the check? Hmm… The signature of B adds nothing. But I don’t think it’d destroy the negotiability. There’s some technical issues (that would take too long to go into) that affect whether UCC 4-205 would apply under this scenario, though. > [@galt](#): > > 1. In situation 1, if this worked, the bank would be “supplying” the missing endorsement, but I would hope that this “supplied” endorsement could not be used in any way to bind A to a contract. Right? Based on your assumption that there’s no agency, I agree. > [@galt](#): > > 1. If situation 2 is possible and happens, would person B then be the one responsible for any loan agreement, even though person A received the loan disbursement? I would think so. I guess the follow-up question would be how person B is identified from just a signature in that case. Grey area. Did B intend to give A a gift? How can B accept an offer made to A without any agency? I can think of several other issues. But lender most likely could recover against either A or B. > [@galt](#): > > It seems as though the ability to arbitrarily deposit a check “for” someone else without their knowledge would lead to an inherent loophole in these “endorsing this check binds you to a contract” things. If that were the case, I could dig through my next door neighbor’s trash, find his $60,000 loan check, follow him to the bank, and then deposit it for him without his knowledge. He hasn’t knowingly taken any money which he should assume has strings, and he certainly hasn’t entered into any agreement with the writer of the check, nor authorized me to enter him in any such agreement. See answer to 4. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/64 "2005-04-06T02:38:58Z")
> [@Lefthandofdorkness](#): > > > [@Random](#): > > > > Where’s the contract part? On the check? On a separate paper? Any Truth in Lending disclosures? > > We get similar checks all the time at our office. They’re for like $2.50, and the small print on the back says that by endorsing and depositing the check, we’re agreeing to sign up to some bogus Internet Yellow Pages scam and be billed for $100 a month or something. Are we talking about big dollar loan checks or $2 checks purporting to be non-loan contracts? I thought we were talking about the former. If it’s the latter, then TILA wouldn’t apply. Whether such a non-loan contract would hold up in court is debatable, and the outcome might vary from state to state. I’ve never researched the issue. {insert earlier disclaimer here} ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/65 "2005-04-06T02:43:29Z")
> [@galt](#): > > 1. Is it possible for person B to deposit a check made out to person A into person A’s account without the knowledge, cooperation, or endorsement of person A, and without having the check endorsed in any way (i.e. nobody endorses it)? I should point out that nothing requires a bank to do what 4-205 authorizes and supply a missing indorsement, but many (if not most) do. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/66 "2005-04-06T02:52:01Z")
> [@Nocturne](#): > > At the bank I worked for, your mother would not be able to do that. Say you got a check for any amount…it could be 20.00, it could be 20,000.00, and your mother wrote “Pay to the Order of Mr. Excellent’s Mom,” then signed your name and signed hers. If she showed up at the bank without you, we would not cash it for her. > > You, Mr. Excellent, would have to be physically present for us to do that. If you’re not there, we wouldn’t cash it, no exceptions. I guess some banks work differently, but mine didn’t. We were too afraid of fraud cases. It wasn’t cashed, it was deposited… into the payee’s account. I wager your bank would allow a 3rd party to submit a deposit in the form of a check made out to X into X’s account. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/67 "2005-04-06T04:32:07Z")
To answer a few questions: I’m not sure how his mother deposited the check in his account but it seems probably that she just faked his signature and endorsed it for him. It’s not like he’s going to sue his own mother for faking his signature. These loan checks you mentionned are interesting. I was not aware of their existence. I’ll definitely tell him about that. However, wouldn’t his mother have spotted any letter or fine print enclosed? Also, he doesn’t get out of bankruptcy for another couple of years so it’s a bit surprising that a loan company would send him checks. I made a mistake earlier. She hasn’t cashed the second check yet. As far as all of this being some bogus cover story, I doubt it very much. What would he have to gain from it? I can think of a number of better stories too if he ever felt the need to make up a cover story for a sudden influx of money. On a whim, I googled his name and found out that there are about 1400 hits (for the exact name) and the most prominent one seems to be some semi-famous attorney who specializes in religious cases. My roommate had mentionned that the organization/company that sent the checks had something to do with chiites, one way or another. This might be a promising lead. ---
**Author:** ![tofergregg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tofergregg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofergregg)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/68 "2005-04-06T04:44:41Z")
Strange twists! \> he doesn’t get out of bankruptcy for another couple of years What’s this all about? If he has a shaky financial history, I would think he would be _very_ careful about any monetary transactions with banks. As for whether his mother would notice fine print, I’ve received credit card loan checks that have the fine print on enclosed forms but not on the check itself. \> My roommate had mentionned that the organization/company that sent the \> checks had something to do with chiites, one way or another. I don’t follow…what is/are “chiites”? -Tofer ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/69 "2005-04-06T04:47:12Z")
It’s the second largest muslim group (the first being the sunnis). The majority of Iraquis and Iranians are shiite for instance. ---
**Author:** ![tofergregg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tofergregg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofergregg)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/70 "2005-04-06T05:06:17Z")
> [@Gozu](#): > > It’s the second largest muslim group (the first being the sunnis). Oh, _Shiites_. I’ve never seen it spelled “Chiites.” Now I get it. If the checks are for the other lawyer, your roommate is going to need to hawk that PSP and pay back the money sooner than later. And he needs to get a hold of the second check and any related correspondence. -Tofer ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/71 "2005-04-06T05:09:11Z")
> [@Gozu](#): > > It’s the second largest muslim group (the first being the sunnis). The majority of Iraquis and Iranians are shiite for instance. I figured you probably meant the Shia (Shiites) rather than the Chi-Lites. In any event – I suspec that this just adds an **additional** layer of crap your buddy may be getting into. In these benighted times, anybody who does ANYTHING with a check intended for use by a Muslim organization is in a fair amount of danger of being labelled an abettor of Islamic terrorists. (Note: I am not saying that all Muslims are terrorists. I am just saying that their charitable donations are being scrutinized rather closely by The Powers That Be.) ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/72 "2005-04-06T05:15:59Z")
(Now, if the checks were signed by "James Beresford Tipton, " it might be a whole different situation.) ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/73 "2005-04-06T05:28:03Z")
Not much about this is making much sense. He needs to take better control of his finances. He needs to wonder why you know so much about his finances. He needs to keep his mother out of his finances. He needs to not be fraudulent in his finances. There will probably be no actual solution to this situation as far as this board is concerned. I’m guessing that _all_ of the facts will not be present here soon, if ever. Anything before that is just guessing, a real answer will only be available after every single fact is present. This discourse is great though, I’ll not interrupt again. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/74 "2005-04-06T05:32:37Z")
> [@Tenar](#): > > …I suspec that this just adds an **additional** layer of crap your buddy may be getting into. In these benighted times, anybody who does ANYTHING with a check intended for use by a Muslim organization is in a fair amount of danger of being labelled an abettor of Islamic terrorists. (Note: I am not saying that all Muslims are terrorists. I am just saying that their charitable donations are being scrutinized rather closely by The Powers That Be.) Not to worry anyone, but they may also scrutinize the friends and _roommates_ of people who cash large checks received from Muslim organizations. ---
**Author:** ![Gaius.Cornelius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b487fb/32.png) [@Gaius.Cornelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaius.Cornelius)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/75 "2005-04-06T07:20:41Z")
> [@](#): > > On a whim, I googled his name and found out that there are about 1400 hits (for the exact name) and the most prominent one seems to be some semi-famous attorney who specializes in religious cases. My roommate had mentionned that the organization/company that sent the checks had something to do with **chiites** , one way or another. This might be a promising lead. A [chitty](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Chitty) is an informal word for a note or reciept etc. This expression is quite common in British English. In the UK, it is certainly possible for a third party to a take a cheque to the bank and pay it into an account provided only that the name on the cheque matches the name of the account - this is required on a so-called crossed cheques, almost all cheques are crossed. What nationality is your roommate? ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/76 "2005-04-06T09:19:42Z")
My roommate is a born and bred american. Yes, I did mean Shiite, not chiite. I should probably mention that I’m not worried about any of this. To me, it’s just this fascinating mystery that i’d really like to elucidate. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/77 "2005-04-06T09:33:45Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > I don’y know how it works in The Kingdom of Butter but here in Squaresville a bank will not let you draw against the proceeds of a deposited cheque (check) until it has been cleared. I think it depends on the circumstances and the type of account - for certain types of cheque (printed banker’s draft, for example), I think clearance is sometimes pretty much assumed (since the money is already debited at the other end (or would be if it wasn’t bogus). Some accounts come with facilities that allow you to draw on uncleared funds (at your own risk) - a bit like an overdraft, but a separate facility). And of course if it happens that your wages went into your account the day before, you’re not drawing on uncleared funds anyway - you’re drawing on your wages, only to find that you dive into the red when the bogus payment bounces and you still have all your monthly bills to pay, but no funds to pay with. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/78 "2005-04-06T11:53:49Z")
> [@Dnooman](#): > > He needs to take better control of his finances. > He needs to wonder why you know so much about his finances. > He needs to keep his mother out of his finances. > He needs to not be fraudulent in his finances. My mother is pretty involved in my finances, especially things like opening mail and depositing checks. Like the OP’s roommate, I’m away at school and use my folks’ house as my ‘permanent address’. The apartment I’m living in now is the fifth I’ll have stayed in for less than 9 months (I go back home for summers). I’d really, really hate to have personal mail sent to an old apartment because I forgot to submit a change of address form to a bank or my school or Blockbuster Video or my doctor, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/79 "2005-04-06T13:29:29Z")
> [@Random](#): > > Not true. I’ll explain further, but to effectively do so, I need to know if you are familiar with the legal concept of agency. > > Note: I am not asserting that one’s mother is automatically one’s agent. I am saying that she could be, depending on the facts, even without anything formal like a power of attorney. For example, if she regularly opens his mail and does his banking for him, and he acquiesces, she likely is his agent, at least for some purposes. An agent can bind a principal to a contract. I’m apparently not as familiar with the concept as I thought; I thought it was functionally equivalent to “power of attorney.” I’ll wait for your explanation before asking my questions. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811/80 "2005-04-06T13:48:03Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not sure how his mother deposited the check in his account but it seems probably that she just faked his signature and endorsed it for him. This has been explained about ten times in this thread, and about a trillion on this board. NOBODY needs the payee’s signature or endorsement to deposit a check made out TO the payee INTO the _payee’s_ account. Nobody needs to sign anything. Anyone can just deposit it into the **payee’s** account - not into anyone else’s account. You don’t have to write “for deposit only” or the account number or anything else. You just give it to the teller with a deposit slip. > [@](#): > > However, wouldn’t his mother have spotted any letter or fine print enclosed? That would be news to thousands of people who stupidly sign all manner of contracts without “noticing” the fine print and then discover later on they have screwed themselves and can do nothing about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-my-roommate-is-getting-free-money-what-the-heck/297811.md?page=5)