# So North Korea? WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 30, 2019, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300 "2019-06-30T14:40:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/101 "2019-07-01T20:19:38Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > Sure it has kept wars at bay, and being predictable will help. But having a degree of unpredictability may _also_ deter an enemy who thinks we have become complacent and unchanged. > > Curious, Tell me how an assumption is mistaken if what is assumed has not been finished in it’s attempt by this person in this given scenario, yet. If it doesn’t work and returns to the “Sanction-Quo” as I like to call it, then is that not when it should be declared a mistaken assumption. Is assuming and assumption is a mistaken assumption, also an assumption? (Blame DasMoocher, he brought up philosophy) 🆒 > > I appreciate the discourse. In the sense that Trump is a radical departure from previous administrations and will show a willingness to engage directly with his counterparts, be it through twitter rhetoric or face-to-face talks, yes, that might not be necessarily a bad departure from the usual playbook. I’m on record as saying that Trump might accidentally be a positive change in some regards - I say accidentally because I rather doubt he really understands the larger political significance of what he’s doing most of the time. But I was never a fan of the “We don’t talk to evil” approach and in that sense, I think Trump is, well, not wrong - I’ll put it that way. But his unpredictability and abrupt reversals are extremely dangerous. His decision to pull troops out of Syria, then reversing himself. Not being on the same page publicly with Secretaries of State and National Security Advisor are also problematic. The danger is that adversaries believe the aggressive rhetoric and respond with aggression the way Iran has, or assumes that they can test the US’ resolve the way Russia and Syria have and will not face consequences. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/102 "2019-07-01T22:31:40Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > Sure it has kept wars at bay, and being predictable will help. But having a degree of unpredictability may _also_ deter an enemy who thinks we have become complacent and unchanged. Trump is not _unpredictable._ He is _unreliable_. That is the problem. Madman theory depends on an actor who is offering a carrot and a very extreme stick. He is unpredictable - you don’t know when he’ll swing the stick, or if he’ll swing it as hard as he says… but he is reliable. Choose stick and you get the stick. Choose carrot and you get carrot. The end. Trump has shown a pattern of threatening a big scary stick, then when that doesn’t work, offering a fat juicy carrot. It’s been predictable so far. The risk is that now everybody knows they can get a carrot by poking him, but nobody is sure what his red line is (if any). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/103 "2019-07-01T23:09:08Z")
His unreliability, now known around the world, is also why he _can’t_ make a deal that means anything. No one can trust him to keep his word or even a written contract - not building subcontractors, not foreign leaders. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/104 "2019-07-01T23:45:24Z")
If he didn’t have the secret service and the support of government funded transportation, the motherfucker would probably be denied if he tried to hire an Uber driver to take him a few blocks. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/105 "2019-07-02T03:21:07Z")
Excellent distinction. “Unreliable,” indeed — the perfect word for him. ---
**Author:** ![dhricenak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/47e85d/32.png) [@dhricenak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhricenak)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/106 "2019-07-02T12:40:28Z")
I don’t entirely understand all the hype about Trump entering North Korea. I always thought the DMZ wasn’t part of either country. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/107 "2019-07-02T12:58:10Z")
> [@dhricenak](#): > > I don’t entirely understand all the hype about Trump entering North Korea. I always thought the DMZ wasn’t part of either country. Not true. The 38th parallel serves as a de facto border - there not being a de jure border as the hostilities have not technically ended. The DMZ is a zone about this de facto border that is demilitarized, i.e. the amount of military equipment and personnel both sides can deploy are limited by agreement. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/108 "2019-07-02T13:13:41Z")
The ROK and DPRK don’t recognize each other’s legal _existence_, reality notwithstanding. There is no border, just a ceasefire line. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/109 "2019-07-02T21:22:38Z")
As far as Trump’s latest feat with North Korea, I don’t put it down to more than “hey, if I go into North Korea, I can be the _first_. That makes the also the _best_ President to set foot in NK.” > [@anomalous1](#): > > Fair enough. But what is it going to do, delay the inevitable war? Peaceably trying to disarm them is a nice strategy, what Trump is doing is a different approach, it is likely going to return to Sanctions and or inevitable war anyway so why not try an approach to minimize collateral damage? The latest step for NK may be to get Trump to agree to allow nuclear stockpiles to remain. That sure seems like a way to minimize collateral damage. Currently, he hasn’t actually done anything to reduce Kim’s nuclear program. Okay, Kim hasn’t launched any long range ballistic missiles in a while, I’ll give you that, but he hasn’t stopped working on them, either. I don’t know why I’m engaging this. ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/110 "2019-07-04T03:41:07Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > In the sense that Trump is a radical departure from previous administrations and will show a willingness to engage directly with his counterparts, be it through twitter rhetoric or face-to-face talks, yes, that might not be necessarily a bad departure from the usual playbook. I’m on record as saying that Trump might accidentally be a positive change in some regards - I say accidentally because I rather doubt he really understands the larger political significance of what he’s doing most of the time. But I was never a fan of the “We don’t talk to evil” approach and in that sense, I think Trump is, well, not wrong - I’ll put it that way. > > But his unpredictability and abrupt reversals are extremely dangerous. His decision to pull troops out of Syria, then reversing himself. Not being on the same page publicly with Secretaries of State and National Security Advisor are also problematic. The danger is that adversaries believe the aggressive rhetoric and respond with aggression the way Iran has, or assumes that they can test the US’ resolve the way Russia and Syria have and will not face consequences. The said “departure from the usual playbook” is definitely the major reason (though, not sole) reason why he had achieved my vote. I was too concerned with an approach that would’ve been more of the same. Obama was very docile, yet respectful and given the similar circles and affiliation I would have thought Hillary as an option would’ve been more of the same. Perhaps it is just a personal belief that one should not be too predictable, shake things up a bit to keep others on their toes and keep things interesting. The cost however may be a different story. As to the second point of your reply, I can absolutely see why that may be/is a concern, I too wish for some more cohesiveness with his peers. May be it is a big risk to take, but I am fairly confident it will not lead us into something larger than there has been in the past, in regards to war anyway. P.S. sorry for long delay in reply, didn’t mean to seem rude, I was preoccupied. ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/111 "2019-07-04T03:48:09Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > As far as Trump’s latest feat with North Korea, I don’t put it down to more than “hey, if I go into North Korea, I can be the _first_. That makes the also the _best_ President to set foot in NK.” > > The latest step for NK may be to get Trump to agree to allow nuclear stockpiles to remain. That sure seems like a way to minimize collateral damage. Currently, he hasn’t actually done anything to reduce Kim’s nuclear program. Okay, Kim hasn’t launched any long range ballistic missiles in a while, I’ll give you that, but he hasn’t stopped working on them, either. > > I don’t know why I’m engaging this. Well, I’m not going to be standoffish. I know it’s the Pit but there are typically more energetic and thoughtful responses spoken/typed more naturally than in other segments of the forum, the responses feel more contrived and less genuine in other areas, this is why I like posting here/debating here, doesn’t necessarily mean I’m going to be a dick. I absolutely am receptive to the situation with North Korea, and it is a difficult situation where both sides are damned regardless of the decision, but if an approach can be taken that can lead to more of a favorable outcome, I am open to it. If it returns to a stalemate, that’s alright. I do not want it to escalate into something more volatile, just like everyone else. I just want to see a different approach and what becomes of it. If I am wrong I will own it, but right now nothing has moved forward or backwards (in my opinion) so it’s still up in the air, as long as N.K. IRBM’s are not, I am open to most options. ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/112 "2019-07-04T03:50:28Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Trump is not _unpredictable._ He is _unreliable_. That is the problem. > > Madman theory depends on an actor who is offering a carrot and a very extreme stick. He is unpredictable - you don’t know when he’ll swing the stick, or if he’ll swing it as hard as he says… but he is reliable. Choose stick and you get the stick. Choose carrot and you get carrot. The end. > > Trump has shown a pattern of threatening a big scary stick, then when that doesn’t work, offering a fat juicy carrot. It’s been predictable so far. The risk is that now everybody knows they can get a carrot by poking him, but nobody is sure what his red line is (if any). Interesting point. I suppose that is a good thing, that a red line hasn’t been discovered for the sake of peace. Only the future will tell in that regard. Hopefully nothing escalates. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/113 "2019-07-04T05:19:44Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > The said “departure from the usual playbook” is definitely the major reason (though, not sole) reason why he had achieved my vote. Clearly and succintly indicate what the other reasons were. “Departure from the playbook” may be a good thing if the person performing that departure is aware of what the game is and what the actual goal of the game is. Trump has no knowledge of the powers of government beyond what he’s experienced in court, both federal and state. > [@](#): > > I was too concerned with an approach that would’ve been more of the same. Same of what? Obama is a great orater, was constitutional law scholar, and, whether you like it or not, was an actual uniter. > [@](#): > > Obama was very docile, No, you didn’t! Docile? Obama? Barack Obama? President Obama? Nah, not docile. > [@](#): > > yet respectful and given the similar circles and affiliation I would have thought Hillary as an option would’ve been more of the same. More of the same what? > [@](#): > > Perhaps it is just a personal belief that one should not be too predictable, shake things up a bit to keep others on their toes and keep things interesting. That might work in a game of poker, blind man’s bluff, or some other silly game. Being reliable, trustworthy, and knowing what you are talking about are all positive things. You might consider trying that last one, by the way. > [@](#): > > The cost however may be a different story. As to the second point of your reply, I can absolutely see why that may be/is a concern, I too wish for some more cohesiveness with his peers. May be it is a big risk to take, but I am fairly confident it will not lead us into something larger than there has been in the past, in regards to war anyway. > > P.S. sorry for long delay in reply, didn’t mean to seem rude, I was preoccupied. Cabinet members are not the peers of the president; they are his advisors. Trump is incapable of taking advice. All he cares about is his ego. Those in the cabinet who do know what their job is, becoming increasingly rare, have found out the hard way that Trump has no knowledge of their departments and will not even attempt to get educated about those departments. Our allies have also learned the hard way that, again, all Trump cares about is his ego and how it was stroked in the last conversation he’s had with anyone, to include Putin, Xi, and Kim. How you can seriously defend such incompetence, ignorance, and malfeasance is astonishing. The situation with North Korea is not a stalemate and really never has been. First off, North Korea is rather fond of sending troops to the south to kill military and civilians. Next, they have launched artillery attacks on South Korean territory in recent years, and have also sunk a South Korean navy ship. Do yourself a favor and stop mouthing off on stuff you clearly have absolutely no knowledge about. It’s pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/114 "2019-07-04T05:26:17Z")
Don’t feed the troll. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/115 "2019-07-04T06:02:24Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Don’t feed the troll. Didn’t realize this was the same poster until now, but based on literally only 2 posts over in GQ in a thread about SD cards, I’ve been pushed off thinking this is a troll and now thinking this poster actually is simply incredibly dumb and inexcusably uninformed but simultaneously unaware of it. Full-on and total Dunning-Kruger Overdrive. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/116 "2019-07-04T06:13:21Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > …poker … or some other silly game… Repent! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/117 "2019-07-04T06:33:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Repent! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/118 "2019-07-04T12:50:14Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > I suppose that is a good thing, that a red line hasn’t been discovered for the sake of peace. Only the future will tell in that regard. Hopefully nothing escalates. Except Putin getting more aggressive on the World stage, doing more and more provocative military acts against our military - like armed jet flybys that come radically close to our aircraft, or interfering with our naval operations with a ship cutting off one of ours. Having a more prominent role in Syria backing Assad, invading the Crimea and pushing for more of Ukraine. Sending military aircraft to South America. And Iran now having more nuclear development than the infamous treaty Obama signed allowed, specifically because the US pulled out of the deal. Engaging with North Korea to try to negotiate a change of conditions is not in of itself a mistake, but we have a chucklehead doing that negotiation. I don’t think he’s made the world safer, and arguably he’s made it less so by increasing Kim Jung Un’s reputation and influence. Trump is giving away prestige for nothing more than his own personal aggrandizement. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/119 "2019-07-04T12:57:31Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > Perhaps it is just a personal belief that one should not be too predictable, shake things up a bit to keep others on their toes and keep things interesting. Yeah this is why every Thursday I drive on the left side of the road, stop at green lights and drive through red ones. It keeps other drivers on their toes, and keeps things really interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300/120 "2019-07-04T13:55:38Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Yeah this is why every Thursday I drive on the left side of the road, stop at green lights and drive through red ones. It keeps other drivers on their toes, and keeps things really interesting. Careful man, if you do it every Thursday your pattern becomes predictable. Just switching lanes whenever intuitively feels like a more interesting strategy. Do report your findings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-north-korea-wtf/836300.md?page=7)