# So now Loki really wasn't evil...
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [January 4, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195 "2019-01-04T15:49:00Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [January 5, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/21 "2019-01-05T21:49:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> Loki killed Coulson. Fuck Loki.
Mind-controlled Loki killed Son of Coul. :rolleyes:
---
### Author:  [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)
#### Post date: [January 5, 2019, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/22 "2019-01-05T22:16:37Z")
Mind-controlled people generally had blacked-out eyes. Loki’s eyes appeared normal throughout the movie.
---
### Author:  [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/23 "2019-01-06T00:49:57Z")
I like the idea questioning the very existence of Evil. IMHO “Evil” is just shorthand for, “I don’t like what that person does, and I don’t care to understand the motivation.” The Loki archetype openly mocks and abuses that lack of empathy.
---
### Author:  [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2019, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/24 "2019-01-06T01:36:40Z")
> [@mbh](#):
>
> Mind-controlled people generally had blacked-out eyes. Loki’s eyes appeared normal throughout the movie.
Mind controlled humans.
---
### Author:  [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/25 "2019-01-06T01:39:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> I remember being irritated when it was suggested that Black Widow had tricked him into revealing information. Loki is the literal god of tricksters, he should be able to manipulate her like Silly
I disagree, he underestimated her. Was it inevitable? No, but in this case, she beat him.
---
### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2019, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/26 "2019-01-06T04:16:09Z")
> [@mbh](#):
>
> Mind-controlled people generally had blacked-out eyes. Loki’s eyes appeared normal throughout the movie.
The people we saw in the movie were mind controlled by Loki. If Loki was mind controlled, it was done by Thanos or somebody else, who may have been able to do it without any visual effects.
---
### Author:  [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2019, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/27 "2019-01-07T22:23:09Z")
Until they say otherwise, I’m not assuming he was being “controlled” by anybody, but more like the Mind Stone itself was corrupting him – like its very nature will bend its holder towards seeking power.
---
### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/28 "2019-01-08T00:41:38Z")
Right, because Loki needed so much bending for that.
---
### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2019, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/29 "2019-01-08T02:10:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Right, because Loki needed so much bending for that.
Well, it may have been a short walk for him, true. 😃
---
### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2019, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/30 "2019-01-08T05:21:59Z")
> [@typoink](#):
>
> Until they say otherwise, I’m not assuming he was being “controlled” by anybody, but more like the Mind Stone itself was corrupting him – like its very nature will bend its holder towards seeking power.
1 mindstone to rule them all?
---
### Author:  [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/31 "2019-01-08T16:27:46Z")
> [@simster](#):
>
> 1 mindstone to rule them all?
Pretty much, although wasn’t the implication that the One Ring was corrupting because of Sauron’s direct influence?
My personal thoughts about the Mind Store is that there isn’t necessarily a consciousness behind it, but more like an artifact with that power will “naturally” cause a power-hunger feedback loop in its user.
I could also see it as a case where, if Loki had chosen to use it benevolently, it would have made HIM more benevolent. So his evil actions WERE made worse by it, but only because he chose to take the first step down that path. Actually could make an interesting moral quandary, that.
---
### Author:  [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/32 "2019-01-08T16:58:16Z")
> [@typoink](#):
>
> Until they say otherwise, I’m not assuming he was being “controlled” by anybody, but more like the Mind Stone itself was corrupting him – like its very nature will bend its holder towards seeking power.
FWIW that is what the link says they are saying happened. The same way it made the Avengers aggressive against each other it made Loki aggressive. Of course it ignores the fact that for a big chunk of the movie he didn’t have the mind stone on his person.
---
### Author:  [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/33 "2019-01-08T17:39:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> Loki is the literal god of tricksters, he should be able to manipulate her like Silly Putty.
Usually. However, tricking the trickster god is also a trope. Trickster gods play games that they could lose (because it’s more fun that way), and they rarely do, but it does happen.
---
### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [January 8, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/34 "2019-01-08T22:12:09Z")
The Mind Stone’s incidental contact with Ultron resulted in him being evil, but it being completely embedded into Vision’s brain resulted in him being good. It’s not consistent (unless it does just magnify whatever’s there, but then we need to track down the seed of evil in Ultron).
---
### Author:  [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/35 "2019-01-09T14:50:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> The Mind Stone’s incidental contact with Ultron resulted in him being evil, but it being completely embedded into Vision’s brain resulted in him being good. It’s not consistent (unless it does just magnify whatever’s there, but then we need to track down the seed of evil in Ultron).
Ultron really was a case of ‘AI taking its parameters too literally’: he’s saving the world, by destroying humanity, bringing about ‘peace in our time’, whatever exactly the goal was. So that’s not evil, per se, but one could argue that there is a seed of motivation that got perverted.
Regardless, I think the change to Loki’s character cheapens him. It robs him of agency. It’s a cash grab exploiting the character’s popularity, but part of that popularity was that he’s not a good guy. It’s a cheap way of reformation: look here, he was never really evil in the first place!
It would’ve been much more interesting to go forward with him as a character who’s done heinous stuff, and who might do so again, but with whom one must find some way of collaborating, rather than gutting his core motivation.
---
### Author:  [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/36 "2019-01-09T14:56:15Z")
So how does all this explain what a dick Loki was in _Thor_, up to and including sending the Destroyer to kill Thor, the Warriors Three, and an entire town in New Mexico?
---
### Author:  [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/37 "2019-01-09T15:26:40Z")
Loki is motivated by jealousy of Thor and really breathtaking levels of parent issues.
Plus, hey. He’s not an idiot. From any real analytical point of view he knows Thor will succeed to the throne and he also knows that Thor - especially at the beginning of the first Thor movie - is a damn meathead who couldn’t rule Asgard wisely. Combine that with his trickster nature and things go south.
Remember, too, that Asgardians seem to have an…interesting…approach to deadly situations. Thor’s bit about Loki turning into a snake to try to bite him is some sort of one-off not worth mentioning except as an anecdote. Also, ‘he’s been dead before’ so for all we know Asgardians do that sort of thing all the time.
Or Thor’s just become numb to Loki’s curlicue thought processes.
---
### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/38 "2019-01-09T15:49:00Z")
The Loki of _Avengers_ alway seemed to me to be acting out a spoiled brat tantrum. He didn’t get his way in _Thor_, so, as Thor himself surmises, he takes out his unhappiness at losing the throne of Asgard by dumping all over Thor’s adopted pet world. He’s got visions (delusions, really) of grandeur, which, of course, are all gone at the movie’s end, by which time he’s like, “Ok, well, that didn’t work, my bad, terribly sorry, hope you don’t mind too much.”
His character underwent a significant evolution by _Thor 2_, and in that film and succeeding appearances, he was played more as someone you can’t trust, because he’s always trying to secretly get ahead, but not particularly “evil”. I thought the way they had him behave at the beginning of _Avengers: Infinity War_ was particularly poorly written; he seems to be teetering between his usual impish self and some sort of overly noble person, with some really cheesy dialog and poorly directed scenes. ☹
---
### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/39 "2019-01-09T15:49:53Z")
Yeah, what makes Loki interesting is that he’s definitely evil, but despite that he can still sometimes be an ally.
**Jonathan Chance** , you certainly can’t draw any sort of comparison between what’s normal for Asgardians in general, and what’s normal for Loki. Thor is used to brothers trying to kill each other, not because he’s Asgardian, but because he’s Loki’s brother.
---
### Author:  [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)
#### Post date: [January 9, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195/40 "2019-01-09T16:15:00Z")
Well, fair enough. But even for that dynamic ‘you tried to kill me!’ would stand out somehow. Normally, that’s one of those can’t-take-back things that you’d take seriously.
Or does Thor have some sort of twisted Stockholm syndrome thing from being associated with Loki for too long?
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195.md?page=1)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-now-loki-really-wasnt-evil/827195.md?page=3)