# So... objectively... is Senator John McCain a "war hero"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 19, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578 "2015-07-19T03:56:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/1 "2015-07-19T03:56:28Z")
Per [Donald Trump’s pontificating](http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/18/politics/donald-trump-john-mccain-war-hero/)he has expressed his doubts over whether John McCain was really a “war hero”. Trump himself applied for and received multiple deferments. > [@](#): > > “He is not a war hero,” Trump told pollster Frank Luntz, who was hosting the session. > > “He is a war hero,” Luntz interjected. > > “He is a war hero because he was captured,” Trump said, cutting him off. "I like people that weren’t captured, OK? I hate to tell you. He is a war hero because he was captured. Here is McCain’s combat record below. He was stoic while being tortured and behaved with honor while a prisoner. Objectively is it reasonable to regard him as a “war hero” for staying strong and hanging tough while captured? Prisoner of war > [@](#): > > John McCain’s capture and subsequent imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.[34][35] McCain fractured both arms and a leg ejecting from the aircraft,[36] and nearly drowned when he parachuted into Trúc Bạch Lake.[34] Some North Vietnamese pulled him ashore, then others crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt and bayoneted him.[34] McCain was then transported to Hanoi’s main Hỏa Lò Prison, nicknamed the “Hanoi Hilton”.[35] > > Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to treat his injuries, beating and interrogating him to get information; he was given medical care only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral.[37] His status as a prisoner of war (POW) made the front pages of major newspapers.[38][39] > > McCain spent six weeks in the hospital while receiving marginal care.[34] By then having lost 50 pounds (23 kg), in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white,[34] McCain was sent to a different camp on the outskirts of Hanoi[40] in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week.[41] In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years.[42] > > In mid-1968, John S. McCain Jr. was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and the North Vietnamese offered McCain early release[44] because they wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes,[45] and also to show other POWs that elite prisoners were willing to be treated preferentially.[44] McCain turned down the offer; he would only accept repatriation if every man taken in before him was released as well. Such early release was prohibited by the POW’s interpretation of the military Code of Conduct: To prevent the enemy from using prisoners for propaganda, officers were to agree to be released in the order in which they were captured.[34] > > In August 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain.[46] He was subjected to rope bindings and repeated beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[34][46] Further injuries led to the beginning of a suicide attempt, stopped by guards.[34] Eventually, McCain made an anti-American propaganda “confession”.[34] He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable, but as he later wrote, “I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine.”[47][48] Many American POWs were tortured and maltreated in order to extract “confessions” and propaganda statements;[49] virtually all of them eventually yielded something to their captors.[50] McCain subsequently received two to three beatings weekly because of his continued refusal to sign additional statements.[51] > > McCain refused to meet with various anti-war groups seeking peace in Hanoi, wanting to give neither them nor the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory.[52] From late 1969 onward, treatment of McCain and many of the other POWs became more tolerable,[53] while McCain continued actively to resist the camp authorities.[54] McCain and other prisoners cheered the U.S. “Christmas Bombing” campaign of December 1972, viewing it as a forceful measure to push North Vietnam to terms.[48][55] > > Altogether, McCain was a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years. He was released on March 14, 1973.[56] His wartime injuries left him permanently incapable of raising his arms above his head.[57] ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/2 "2015-07-19T04:29:36Z")
As I understand it, he was a “rock of gibraltar” for the others in the camp, a pillar of strength, a metaphor of mixedness – he helped a lot of the other guys get through the ordeal. That adds a lot to the claim for heroism. Also, Americans have really diluted the term, and use it to refer to just about any G.I. Joe who served a couple tours in Afghanistan, especially if they saw any kind of action whatever. We don’t have a working definition of “hero” any longer. Still… What medals was McCain awarded? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/3 "2015-07-19T04:37:33Z")
[Here is a link to his awards and decorations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_military_career_of_John_McCain#Awards_and_decorations) ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/4 "2015-07-19T04:52:13Z")
> [@](#): > > the North Vietnamese offered McCain early release because they wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes, and also to show other POWs that elite prisoners were willing to be treated preferentially. McCain turned down the offer; he would only accept repatriation if every man taken in before him was released as well. What is there to discuss here? (other than the fact that Trump’s quote shows just how disgusting a human being he is). MCain not only endured torture \*, he refused to accept being released from prison based on his (and his father’s) rank. That’s what blows my mind, and shows heroic strength of character. \*and came home without complaining about PTSD ---
**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/5 "2015-07-19T04:52:35Z")
I hate his political views, but of course he’s a war hero. He endured horrible conditions for over five years. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/6 "2015-07-19T04:58:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Still… What medals was McCain awarded? [From his Wiki article.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain#Early_life_and_military_career.2C_1936.E2.80.931981) > [@](#): > > ``` > Silver Star > > ``` > > Bronze Star > Purple Heart > Legion of Merit > Distinguished Flying Cross ribbon > Navy and Marine Corps Commendation [Here’s the rest.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_military_career_of_John_McCain#Awards_and_decorations) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/7 "2015-07-19T04:59:49Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > \*and came home without complaining about PTSD PTSD is a real thing, you know. It’s not some namby-pamby fake disease like lupus. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/8 "2015-07-19T05:00:19Z")
Yes. McCain is a hero. He is certainly a hero to those who were in captivity with him. And he refused an offer of early release tendered by North Vietnam. Now let’s look, using the link provided by **Czarcasm** , at some of McCain’s awards and their criteria. [ul][li]Silver Star: awarded for gallantry not justifying the award of one of the next higher valor awards[/li][li]Distinguished Flying Cross: distinguishes himself by heroism or extraordinary achievement while participating in an aerial flight[/li][li]Bronze Star Medal: for either heroic achievement, heroic service, meritorious achievement, or meritorious service in a combat zone[/li][li]National Order of Vietnam: was considered the highest honor that could be bestowed upon an individual by the Republic of Vietnam government[/li][list][li]_All definitions cribbed from Wikipedia_[/ul][/list][/li] Regardless of how the term _hero_ has or has not been diluted in today’s parlance, McCain qualifies as a hero for what he went through and what he did when he was in combat and in captivity. Anyway, why care about Trump’s opinion on the matter? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/9 "2015-07-19T05:01:32Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > \*and came home without complaining about PTSD That comment is unfair to those who suffer from an actual medical condition. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/10 "2015-07-19T05:18:03Z")
A better question: in the past was there mockery of McCain’s POW past on the left (jingling keys anyone) and vehement arguments in Democrat echo chambers that he is no “war hero”? ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/11 "2015-07-19T05:24:59Z")
Just to be clear there was a “V Device” associated with McCain’s Bronze Star. It was awarded for valor not service. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/12 "2015-07-19T05:29:16Z")
Dude showed that he had more balls than a bowling alley repeatedly and did it during wartime under conditions of war. To me that sounds like a war hero, of the type that his own enemies call a war hero. But if one of the measures of a man is the worth of their enemies, I’d like to request that McCain be measured by the worth of the VC and not by that of Donald Trump, who may have a lot of money but appears to have very little worth. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/13 "2015-07-19T05:46:21Z")
You can love Trump or you can hate him, but you have to give him credit: who else could make the teeming millions of Straight Dope Bleeding Heart Liberals defend John McCain! ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/14 "2015-07-19T06:10:10Z")
Of course he is. You’d have to be a a right bastard to say otherwise. I don’t recall any mainstream Democratic source attacking his heroism in 2008. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/15 "2015-07-19T06:18:08Z")
You know despite his idiocy I kind of liked Trump to a point because of his outspokenness even if a lot of the shit he said was stupid. But for some spoiled rich pussy like him to have the gall to even suggest that John McCain is not a war hero has made me lose all of the little respect that I had left for him and makes me actually wish him ill. The Vietnam was a pointless and wrong war, granted but those soldiers still deserve respect for serving their country and many of them were drafted. McCain obviously wasn’t drafted but he did serve his country and paid for it with five years of his freedom and unimaginable trauma both physical and mental. The accounts I’ve read or watched also suggest that he helped his fellow POW’s keep it together in a tough situation. He could have been released early, gotten preferential treatment because of who his Father was but he had the integrity not to take the easy way out. I think the overwhelming majority of people would have taken the early release when facing the torture that he was subjected to. Trump wouldn’t have lasted 5 minutes in those conditions let alone 5 years. I remember watching some documentary about his inprisonment and I believe there was one guy in particular that carried out the torture or ordered it carried out on McCain and when McCain discussed the guy his whole demeanor changed and he got this distant look in his eyes, the pitch of his voice changed, and it seemed on some level even all those years later there was still this fear under the surface. I used to have a neighbor that was a Marine and served two tours in Vietnam as infantry and lost his leg as a result. We would drink beers in the evening and talk about his time there and it was so fascinating to me I looked forward to our talks. When he talked about the things he saw there was almost a palpable, electric energy in the air. I hope this causes a huge public backlash and blows up in his face. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/16 "2015-07-19T06:20:05Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That comment is unfair to those who suffer from an actual medical condition. I didnt mean to sound snarky or disrespectful…I just meant that McCain was obviously much stronger than the thousands of soldiers who have served in combat, and then suffered PTSD. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/17 "2015-07-19T06:23:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > A better question: in the past was there mockery of McCain’s POW past on the left (jingling keys anyone) and vehement arguments in Democrat echo chambers that he is no “war hero”? Donald Trump is a Democrat echo chamber? Show me a prominent Democrat who says John McCain is not a war hero. The list of his medals, linked above, answers the question for me: he damned well is. Now show me who’s saying he isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/18 "2015-07-19T06:25:19Z")
I guess it depends on your definition of what constitutes a ‘war hero.’ The 6 million Jews that the Nazis killed, were they war heroes? How about the survivors of the camps? I don’t think it denigrates the experiences of those who were forced to suffered greatly to say that ‘heroism’ isn’t the right label for what happened to them. And then the question would be, what makes McCain’s ordeal more ‘heroic’ than theirs? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/19 "2015-07-19T06:27:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > A better question: in the past was there mockery of McCain’s POW past on the left (jingling keys anyone) and vehement arguments in Democrat echo chambers that he is no “war hero”? Why is that a “better” question if this thread is about something a _Republican_ candidate said about McCain? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/20 "2015-07-19T06:28:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > A better question: in the past was there mockery of McCain’s POW past on the left (jingling keys anyone) Gotta say I missed this; I’d need a cite or two from a reputable source. (IOW, WorldNetDaily and its equivalents don’t count.) OTOH, I have a clear recollection of Republicans’ ridiculing John Kerry’s Purple Hearts. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578.md?page=2)