# So... objectively... is Senator John McCain a "war hero"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 19, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578 "2015-07-19T03:56:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/61 "2015-07-19T17:21:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot more opinions are shaped by CommonDreams + NewsOne + DemocraticUnderground etc. than by Trump. Never heard of the first two, and am vaguely aware of the third, but I don’t frequent radical sites of any stripe. Issue at hand: This is an interesting thread, despite the derailment attempts. I’ve often pondered the meaning of ‘hero’ and agree it’s way overused and becoming meaningless in large part. I’ve also thought a lot about McCain over the years and about the ‘hero’ sobriquet being applied to him. His behavior in the POW camp certainly showed grit, determination and leadership in the face of continued torture and deprivation. This is what is expected of American military members who are captured, and is part of the [American Soldier’s Creed](http://www.vfwpost192-nj.com/the-original-soldier-s-creed.php). Some succeed at it better than others. I don’t know how I, as a career military vet, would have fared in the same situation, and so I respect what he did. Does his bravery under torture rise to the level of heroism? Perhaps in conjunction with other actions in his Navy time, ‘hero’ is appropriate. On its own, I have my doubts. I haven’t read the citations for his DFC and Silver Star awards, so can’t speak to other events outside of his captivity. There’s no doubt in my mind that he’s a survivor of the first order. It wasn’t fall-on-a-grenade-rush-into-withering-enemy-fire-to-retrieve-wounded-comrades heroics, certainly. To the civilian population, who cannot imagine going through his ordeal, he is certainly a hero. Those who served in combat may not be so quick to apply the label. As with all things, people may believe as they wish, and I don’t have a quarrel with this particular non-issue. It certainly doesn’t seem to require a long thread of thinly-disguised vitriol. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/62 "2015-07-19T17:25:48Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > He volunteered for combat. He volunteered for dangerous missions. He refused early release, and largely did not cooperate with his captors in the face of brutal torture. These are heroic things. That is what “hero” means. > > Trump’s comments are repugnant. I have to agree completely with your definition. Yes, some soldiers who bravely go into combat are killed in the first 30 seconds. Still makes them heroes for doing it. Some survive and succeed in some dangerous missions, are eventually shot down, and held in captivity for 5.5 years. Still heroes. And some are in just the right spot at just the right time, and incredible lucky, and manage to slaughter hundreds or thousands of enemy soldiers, or save dozens of friendly lives. Those guys are also heroes - but “rambo” soldiers who pull off something like that would not be able to accomplish what they do without the soldiers to the left and right of them who were there as well. This reminds me of the video game world of tanks, where sometimes a single player can kill 6 tanks. (there are 8 tanks on the enemy team). Generally, this is impossible unless the other players in the game damaged the enemy vehicles first and soaked some hits for you so that you get a chance to make the shots. I know that a video game != real combat in any way, I’m just using it as an example of how the player who gets the highest score isn’t solely responsible for the win. You know who isn’t a war hero? Someone who uses deferments to get out of going to war at all, or someone who gets themselves into a job that will not involve any risk. Frankly, I can’t blame someone for doing that - the Vietnam war was a meat grinder that accomplished nothing - but people who didn’t go don’t have the right to say someone else who went into danger isn’t a hero. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/63 "2015-07-19T17:27:27Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I don’t recall any mainstream Democratic source attacking his heroism in 2008. Hell, I think people think even more highly of his heroism during the Vietnam War. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/64 "2015-07-19T17:34:43Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I didnt mean to sound snarky or disrespectful…I just meant that McCain was obviously much stronger than the thousands of soldiers who have served in combat, and then suffered PTSD. You think PTSD is caused by weakness? Weakness or character or mental strength? That’s wrong and harmful to the people who suffer from it. Would he be any less a hero if he had come home with PTSD? ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/65 "2015-07-19T19:26:43Z")
I don’t know if McCain is a hero but his actions as a POW were heroic. He volunteered for combat operations and that certainly requires courage but not necessarily heroism. I doubt McCain would say of himself “I’m a hero.” But he can certainly say “I didn’t avoid service.” To that he could append, “unlike Trump.” McCain might be a “hero;” Trump is certainly an “asshole.” ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/66 "2015-07-19T19:46:02Z")
Interestingly (well, to me anyway), lots of Freepers are agreeing with Trump about McCain. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/67 "2015-07-19T20:17:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s not “research” to go to Vietnam, interview McCain’s two “prison directors” and publish it? I suppose, but one piece of research (a single interview) does not a “research piece” make, at least not in my mind. It was an interesting interview about a guy who doesn’t seem particularly trustworthy to me. I saw nothing from the writers that indicates they did or did not believe his story. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/68 "2015-07-19T21:38:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Did I say “prominent Democrat”? I said Democrat echo chamber forums were all foaming at the mouth about him not being a hero and plotting to jingle keys at him so that he would have a PTSD reaction. Want links? There are quite a few. If you want to judge a major political party by the most extreme members…you lose BIG TIME, Republican. How many death threats has McCain received, compared to Obama? Dude, you lose here. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/69 "2015-07-19T21:43:00Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > First of all, Vietnam was NOT a “war”-it was a police action. There was no official declaration of war . . . This has been settled long ago, and you’re wrong. It was a war. Veterans have “veteran of war” status. Injuries are recorded as war injuries. Congress passed an authorization bill, that has the same legal status as a declaration of war. For shuck’s sake, we flew B-52s and dropped bombs on their capital city. What fantasy makes you imagine that wasn’t a war? This is absurd Freeper nonsense that needs to be shouted down when it pops up. (Next you’ll say the Civil War was about states’ rights, not slavery.) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/70 "2015-07-19T22:30:50Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > First of all, Vietnam was NOT a “war”-it was a police action. There was no official declaration of war, just Lyndon Johnson saying how he wanted to bring peace and freedom to South Vietnam. This board is supposed to fight ignorance, not perpetuate it. You think it wasn’t a war? Were you there? Do you ever do any research before you post nonsense? I challenge anyone who thinks like this to visit “The Wall” in Washington. If it doesn’t move you to tears, then you’re not human. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/71 "2015-07-19T23:20:07Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Yes, some soldiers who bravely go into combat are killed in the first 30 seconds. Still makes them heroes for doing it. Some survive and succeed in some dangerous missions, are eventually shot down, and held in captivity for 5.5 years. Still heroes. I think calling everyone who is ever in a combat situation a hero (a) waters the term down excessively, and (b) leads to the sort of bullshit cheap near-worship of the military we have today, where we ask veterans to stand at the beginning of a ballgame so we can recognize them and thank them \*en masse \*for their service. ETA: War or police action? It’s like the tired old joke, "How many legs does a dog have, if you call a tail a leg? (The answer is: four - calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it one.) ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/72 "2015-07-20T01:16:29Z")
[quote=“Monty, post:8, topic:725578”] [li]National Order of Vietnam: was considered the highest honor that could be bestowed upon an individual by the Republic of Vietnam government[/li][/QUOTE] Just watching with interest. Not going to take sides. Semantic debate. McCain is a Commander of the National Order of Vietnam. Not the “highest honor”, mid level award. The award was given to political and staff-officer people, so in general it recognises something other than personal heroism. His _other_ Vietnamese award looks more interesting – it’s a unit citation for Gallantry? Does anyone know what that was for? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/73 "2015-07-20T01:44:14Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I didnt mean to sound snarky or disrespectful…I just meant that McCain was obviously much stronger than the thousands of soldiers who have served in combat, and then suffered PTSD. You’re sounding rather like Trump here. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/74 "2015-07-20T02:36:24Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > \*and came home without complaining about PTSD Maybe he has it, maybe he doesn’t. A lot of guys, in response to comments like yours, self-medicated rather than seek help. > [@friedo](#): > > PTSD is a real thing, you know. It’s not some namby-pamby fake disease like lupus. Or what **friedo** said. > [@Terr](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot more opinions are shaped by CommonDreams + NewsOne + DemocraticUnderground etc. than by Trump. Who? DU I’ve heard of, though never read. I have no idea about the others. On the other hand, Trump is the leading candidate for the Republicans. He may not shape opinions, since he seems to be parroting existing opinions, but by saying them from his position of authority he tells those people that it’s okay to think like that. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/75 "2015-07-20T02:48:32Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I didnt mean to sound snarky or disrespectful…I just meant that McCain was obviously much stronger than the thousands of soldiers who have served in combat, and then suffered PTSD. First rule of being stuck down a hole of one’s making is to quit digging, mate. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/76 "2015-07-20T12:48:55Z")
I think McCain’s service is overblown, to say the least. [His skills as a pilot left a lot to be desired.](http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/06/nation/na-aviator6) > [@](#): > > John McCain was training in his AD-6 Skyraider on an overcast Texas morning in 1960 when he slammed into Corpus Christi Bay and sheared the skin off his plane’s wings. > > McCain recounted the accident decades later in his autobiography. “The engine quit while I was practicing landings,” he wrote. But an investigation board at the Naval Aviation Safety Center found no evidence of engine failure. > > The 23-year-old junior lieutenant wasn’t paying attention and erred in using “a power setting too low to maintain level flight in a turn,” investigators concluded. So he screws up his job and then lies about it. > [@](#): > > In his most serious lapse, McCain was “clowning” around in a Skyraider over southern Spain about December 1961 and flew into electrical wires, causing a blackout, according to McCain’s own account as well as those of naval officers and enlistees aboard the carrier Intrepid. In another incident, in 1965, McCain crashed a T-2 trainer jet in Virginia. How many millions of dollars did McCain’s clowning around cost? How much inconvenience for the Spaniards that lost power because of it? Was he a war hero because of his POW status? [Not everybody thinks so.](http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/06/13/mcnasty/) > [@](#): > > “McCain had a unique POW experience. Initially, he was taken to the infamous Hanoi Hilton prison camp, where he was interrogated. By McCain’s own account, after three or four days, he cracked. He promised his Vietnamese captors, “I’ll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.”” > > "One can only wonder when the concierge at the Hanoi Hilton started taking calls from Admiral McCain. Rather quickly, one surmises, for the Vietnamese soon took John Boy McCain to a hospital reserved for Vietnamese officers. Unlike his fellow POWs, he received care from a Soviet doctor. > > “This poor stooge has propaganda value,” the Vietnamese realized. The Admiral’s bad boy was used to special treatment and his captors knew that. They were working him. Then there’s the matter of how he [divorced his wife when she became disfigured.](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html) > [@](#): > > She was the woman McCain dreamed of during his long incarceration and torture in Vietnam’s infamous ‘Hanoi Hilton’ prison and the woman who faithfully stayed at home looking after the children and waiting anxiously for news. > > But when McCain returned to America in 1973 to a fanfare of publicity and a handshake from Richard Nixon, he discovered his wife had been disfigured in a terrible car crash three years earlier. Her car had skidded on icy roads into a telegraph pole on Christmas Eve, 1969. Her pelvis and one arm were shattered by the impact and she suffered massive internal injuries. > > When Carol was discharged from hospital after six months of life-saving surgery, the prognosis was bleak. In order to save her legs, surgeons > > had been forced to cut away huge sections of shattered bone, taking with it her tall, willowy figure. She was confined to a wheelchair and was forced to use a catheter. > > Through sheer hard work, Carol learned to walk again. But when John McCain came home from Vietnam, she had gained a lot of weight and bore little resemblance to her old self. McCain came back from Vietnam and discovered that his wife, who had stuck by him and waited for his return, had lost some of her physical appeal. So he dumped her for a trophy wife. Since his pathetic campaign for president, McCain has spent virtually every Sunday morning with the television talking heads, whining about each and every thing Obama does or tries to do. Lousy pilot, cooperative POW, rotten husband, adulterer, poor loser. That’s John McCain. He may be your hero, but he sure as hell isn’t mine. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/77 "2015-07-20T13:03:58Z")
He displayed some heroism while in captivity. It doesn’t require a lot of analysis of how much heroism there was because it was an infinitely greater amount than Trump has ever displayed at any time in his life. McCain’s service doesn’t qualify him any more for President than anyone else, but he certainly deserves respect from Americans for his acts of courage and leadership while in captivity, and Trump deserves derision for his comments. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/78 "2015-07-20T13:11:54Z")
If McCain was a “hero”, then Josef Mengele (possibly the most despicable “human being” to have disgraced this earth) was a hero as well, since he undertook [some pretty brave actions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele#Military_service) during his Eastern Front service (including saving the crew of a burning tank which was above and beyond the call of duty). McCain was a career Navy officer. What he did was nothing more than his duty. He seems to have undertaken and fulfilled his duty in some rather trying circumstances (to day the least) for which he is rightly commended, but a “hero”? Come on. Trump is still a talking castrated penis though. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/79 "2015-07-20T13:22:20Z")
I am no fan of McCain the politician, but I have nothing but respect for his service. For a piece of shit like Trump to call in to question his service is disgusting. The Washington Post had a piece today contrasting what McCain and Trump were doing with their lives in the 1960s, it’s a pretty striking difference. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/20/what-donald-trump-was-up-to-while-john-mccain-was-suffering-as-a-prisoner-of-war/?tid=hp\_mm&hpid=z3](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/20/what-donald-trump-was-up-to-while-john-mccain-was-suffering-as-a-prisoner-of-war/?tid=hp_mm&hpid=z3) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/80 "2015-07-20T13:35:47Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > This board is supposed to fight ignorance, not perpetuate it. You think it wasn’t a war? Were you there? Do you ever do any research before you post nonsense? I challenge anyone who thinks like this to visit “The Wall” in Washington. If it doesn’t move you to tears, then you’re not human. Show me the declaration of war. It was a war in everything but name, but it was not declared a war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578.md?page=5)