# So... objectively... is Senator John McCain a "war hero"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 19, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578 "2015-07-19T03:56:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/81 "2015-07-20T13:40:37Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Show me the declaration of war. It was a war in everything but name, but it was not declared a war. I’m sure that calling it something other than a war is a great comfort to the dead, the maimed and their families. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/82 "2015-07-20T13:49:33Z")
This is not the first time someone has accused McCain’s service as being less than honorable. Bush famously smeared McCain’s war service and started a rumor that McCain had an illegitimate black child (he has an adopted child from Sri Lanka) during the 2000 South Carolina primary, but he did it through proxies and a whisper campaign, he didn’t say it directly. I don’t know if that makes Trump braver than Bush or dumber. > **[The Trashing of John McCain](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2004/11/mccain200411)** > > Simultaneously stumping for Bush and defending Kerry against attacks by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, John McCain must be haunted by the vicious South Carolina smear campaign (he was crazy, a traitor, he fathered a black child) that helped Bush win... ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/83 "2015-07-20T14:33:00Z")
I’m not convinced that there exists an “objective” measure of hero but by several subjective measures, and in my opinion, there’s no particular reason to withhold the label from him (unless you’re his flight instructor, I suppose). He’s frequently a crotchety asshole and I consider both his treatment of his first wife and many of his political views to be terrible, but he earned his medals. My FIL did two tours in Vietnam in the late 1960s and came back with Silver and Bronze stars himself (and a lifelong back injury). He doesn’t talk much about it but from what he’s told me it sounded like hell and certainly not like your Hollywood portrayal of war. Without attempting to glamorize what he did at all, I consider him a hero as well. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/84 "2015-07-20T14:34:20Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Show me the declaration of war. It was a war in everything but name, but it was not declared a war. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/85 "2015-07-20T14:44:13Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Show me the declaration of war. It was a war in everything but name, but it was not declared a war. [Close enough?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Resolution) And, btw, :rolleyes: . ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/86 "2015-07-20T15:12:41Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > If McCain was a “hero”, then Josef Mengele (possibly the most despicable “human being” to have disgraced this earth) was a hero as well, since he undertook [some pretty brave actions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele#Military_service) during his Eastern Front service (including saving the crew of a burning tank which was above and beyond the call of duty). Those actions of Mengele were heroic. His later actions do not negate them. I’d say he’s both a despicable criminal and a war hero. Nothing prevents someone from being both. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/87 "2015-07-20T15:19:13Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I’m sure that calling it something other than a war is a great comfort to the dead, the maimed and their families. ISTM that the president is reluctant to request a declaration of war and congress is reluctant to grant such because there may be certain things that get kicked into action (sorry about the pun) when congress makes a declaration of war. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/88 "2015-07-20T15:25:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > As I said elsewhere, I think this is the best evidence we have that Trump isn’t taking this seriously. He’s just drumming up controversy for controversy’s sake. After his absurdly over-the-top comments on Mexican immigrants, I had been wondering if Trump was some kind of _agent provocateur_ whose real purpose was to cause trouble in the Republican party. But after is comments about McCain (who is considered a war hero by probably at least 95% of Americans), I think **BigT** is right: Trump is just dicking around. This is what a guy who is worth $10 Billion does when he is bored, and doesn’t really care who he pisses off. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/89 "2015-07-20T16:19:12Z")
If Trump is actually worth $10 billion I’ll eat my hat. I have yet to see any real accounting of his estate. (The disclosures he filed with the FEC are not detailed and not subject to any kind of audit or verification.) Most of his claimed wealth comes from estimated valuations of equity stakes in extremely illiquid property deals. And those estimates are basically made up by him. I also suspect he’s hiding a shitload of festering liabilities through his various entities. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/90 "2015-07-20T17:05:34Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And then the question would be, what makes McCain’s ordeal more ‘heroic’ than theirs? Did you read the OP? Did you understand the words, or just not believe them? Isn’t refusing to cooperate under extensive torture being heroic (even if they did eventually find a breaking point?) Isn’t refusing to be returned early, out-of-order, for political reasons benefiting the enemy heroic? Isn’t being an example to the other men while being treated horrifically heroic? WTF do you consider heroic? Shooting all the bad guys and walking away without a scratch? I’m sure there were enormous numbers of unsung heroes in WW2, all over, even on the “bad guy” sides. Does that make non-heroes of the ones we happen to know about? What IS your point? What about McCain’s record is NOT heroic? How do you define the term so that it doesn’t apply? Just for the record, I liked Senator McCain back in the 90’s, thanks to his reaching across the aisle. I rarely agreed with his opinions on Iraq. He totally lost me in his campaign for presidency and moronic choice of running mate, and since then I haven’t been at all impressed. I’m no McCain fanboy; I voted twice for Obama. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/91 "2015-07-20T17:06:29Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > :rolleyes: My father, who is a Vietnam combat vet (army, Specialist E-6), for some reason also trots out the “it wasn’t a war; it was a police action” line. I have no idea why, or where he got it from, but he sometimes gets unusually hung up on technical definitions. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/92 "2015-07-20T17:07:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Close enough?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Resolution) > > And, btw, :rolleyes: . By pedantic definition, the Civil War wasn’t a war, either. Lincoln acted unilaterally, as had presidents before and after him. After Vietnam, the War Powers Resolution Act was passed in 1973, in an effort to limit the powers of the President to commit troops without approval of Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/93 "2015-07-20T17:09:45Z")
Trump is a jerk. He’s so far from being presedential it’s a joke. He said that since he’s richer than others he’s obviously more successful, so he’d make a better president. Anyone who votes for someone with arguments like that deserves the government they get. But of course, we’ll get Mexico to pay for the wall, because … they HATE us down there! Calling McCain not a hero when he was a weasel is really low, but doesn’t surprise me. Anyway, enjoy the show. I have little respect for the Republican party beginning with the GWB era, but I doubt they’ll be stupid enough to select Trump as their candidate. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/94 "2015-07-20T17:16:56Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Never heard of the first two, and am vaguely aware of the third, but I don’t frequent radical sites of any stripe. > > Issue at hand: This is an interesting thread, despite the derailment attempts. I’ve often pondered the meaning of ‘hero’ and agree it’s way overused and becoming meaningless in large part. > > I’ve also thought a lot about McCain over the years and about the ‘hero’ sobriquet being applied to him. His behavior in the POW camp certainly showed grit, determination and leadership in the face of continued torture and deprivation. This is what is expected of American military members who are captured, and is part of the [American Soldier’s Creed](http://www.vfwpost192-nj.com/the-original-soldier-s-creed.php). Some succeed at it better than others. I don’t know how I, as a career military vet, would have fared in the same situation, and so I respect what he did. > > Does his bravery under torture rise to the level of heroism? Perhaps in conjunction with other actions in his Navy time, ‘hero’ is appropriate. On its own, I have my doubts. I haven’t read the citations for his DFC and Silver Star awards, so can’t speak to other events outside of his captivity. There’s no doubt in my mind that he’s a survivor of the first order. It wasn’t fall-on-a-grenade-rush-into-withering-enemy-fire-to-retrieve-wounded-comrades heroics, certainly. To the civilian population, who cannot imagine going through his ordeal, he is certainly a hero. Those who served in combat may not be so quick to apply the label. > > As with all things, people may believe as they wish, and I don’t have a quarrel with this particular non-issue. It certainly doesn’t seem to require a long thread of thinly-disguised vitriol. Repeating this because (1) It makes a lot of sense and (2) I agree with it (which of course is why it makes a lot of sense…🆒) Seriously, how one defines a “hero”, especially in a military sense, does seem to have been extended to _all_ military members these days. To me, military heroes are like Audie Murphy, or Marines on Tarawa charging Japanese pillboxes, or pulling wounded comrades out of an ambush in Vietnam. I guess my definition in that case is 'someone who deliberately risks life and limb _when not expected to_ to preserve or save lives of his comrades. That’s my interpretation: YMMV. The John McCain was courageous, brave, and noble and that he performed in an honorable manner during his captivity I do not argue; but so did hundreds, if not thousands of other Americans, perhaps to even a greater extent than he did, that we have never heard of. And really, he did only what is expected of all American servicemen taken prisoner; his best. So I may (albeit reluctantly) may have to conclude that while John McCain was a noble, honorable and courageous military man, he is, to borrow from another place, “No John Kennedy.” IMHO as always. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/95 "2015-07-20T17:22:11Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > So I may (albeit reluctantly) may have to conclude that while John McCain was a noble, honorable and courageous military man, he is, to borrow from another place, “No John Kennedy.” Just because Kennedy was killed? I like those who don’t get killed. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/96 "2015-07-20T17:31:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Just because Kennedy was killed? I like those who don’t get killed. No, because he saved one of his men after his PT boat sank. I like those that save other guys. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/97 "2015-07-20T17:34:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Just because Kennedy was killed? I like those who don’t get killed. Since there are (presumably) young people who don’t know the Kennedy story, I was of course referring to his WWII actions (from Wikipedia): > [@](#): > > On August 2, 1943, Kennedy’s boat, the PT-109, along with the PT-162 and the PT-169, was performing nighttime patrols near New Georgia in the Solomon Islands, when PT-109 was rammed by the Japanese destroyer Amagiri. Kennedy gathered his surviving crew members together in the water around the wreckage, to vote on whether to “fight or surrender”. Kennedy stated, “There’s nothing in the book about a situation like this. A lot of you men have families and some of you have children. What do you want to do? I have nothing to lose.” Shunning surrender, the men swam towards a small island. > > Kennedy, despite re-injury to his back in the collision, towed a badly burned crewman through the water with a life jacket strap clenched between his teeth. He towed the wounded man to the island, and later to a second island, from where his crew was subsequently rescued. For these actions, Kennedy received the Navy and Marine Corps Medal with the following citation: > > _For extremely heroic conduct as Commanding Officer of Motor Torpedo Boat 109 following the collision and sinking of that vessel in the Pacific War Theater on August 1–2, 1943. Unmindful of personal danger, Lieutenant (then Lieutenant, Junior Grade) Kennedy unhesitatingly braved the difficulties and hazards of darkness to direct rescue operations, swimming many hours to secure aid and food after he had succeeded in getting his crew ashore. His outstanding courage, endurance and leadership contributed to the saving of several lives and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service._ ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/98 "2015-07-20T18:38:32Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No, because he saved one of his men after his PT boat sank. I like those that save other guys. He let some of his crew get killed. He should have spontaneously developed super-powers and rescued the rest. I like those that don’t let any of their crew die. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/99 "2015-07-20T19:12:36Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > First of all, Vietnam was NOT a “war”-it was a police action. There was no official declaration of war, just Lyndon Johnson saying how he wanted to bring peace and freedom to South Vietnam. Was McCain a “hero”? He endured torture and injury, and lost many years of his life. He did what countless others had done. He endured, and survived. Does that make him a “hero”? Yes, it does. And the “countless others” who were imprisoned and survived, too. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578/100 "2015-07-20T19:32:41Z")
While trying to stay as nonpartisan as possible: McCain’s service is a matter of public record, as are his awards for meritorious service. Can’t argue with those, really. Trump has never actually been proven to be insane or just a colossal ass, but he seems to be doing his damndest to provide as much subjective evidence as possible for at least the latter. PTSD is a real thing. Some people suffer from it, whereas some don’t. Without saying who’s “weak” and who ain’t, I would point out that a great many people who served in Vietnam had little choice in the matter – it was suit up for Basic or hare off to Canada. Given those facts, I find it inadvisable to judge anyone on their PTSD. Except Trump. Trump’s an ass. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-objectively-is-senator-john-mccain-a-war-hero/725578.md?page=6)