# So...one more time...WHAT was the Fellowship's plan?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 22, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545 "2018-12-22T20:06:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/21 "2018-12-23T18:01:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Given Galadriel and Gandalf were both knocking around Valinor before all that unpleasantness with the Trees and Jewels and Kinslaying, I’d say quite probably they knew \*of \*each other. He was the wisest Maia, she the fairest Elf… “But of Olorin [the _Quenta Silmarillion_] does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the prompting of wisdom that he put into their hearts.” So she probably didn’t know him from before. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/22 "2018-12-23T18:09:06Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > “But of Olorin [the _Quenta Silmarillion_] does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the prompting of wisdom that he put into their hearts.” So she probably didn’t know him from before. Yes. It’s not clear at all if anyone really new Gandalf’s true nature beyond supposition. From _Unfinished Tales_ (emphasis mine)… > [@](#): > > “…they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save _ **maybe** _ Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came” ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/23 "2018-12-23T18:20:17Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The Fellowship’s plan was ‘try to do what is right, however hopeless it seems’. Perhaps God will intervene, or perhaps He has some larger plan, even if you fail. **THIS**. Consider the discussion between Galadriel and Elrond: Galadriel: ‘Through ages of the world we have fought **the long defeat** ’. Elrond: ‘I have seen three ages in the West of the world, and many defeats and many fruitless victories’. They know, as does Gandalf, that the only hope is through the intervention of Iluvatar, and their only choice is to try. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/24 "2018-12-23T19:56:54Z")
Sauron may have been a bad egg (or was he?), but the Fellowship’s real master plan was to jinx the development of industrialization, urbanization, and democracy. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/25 "2018-12-23T20:19:45Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Sauron may have been a bad egg (or was he?), but the Fellowship’s real master plan was to jinx the development of industrialization, urbanization, and democracy. In a world with magic, immortals, and lines of power that actually follow genealogical lineage, such objections to development actually make a bit of sense. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/26 "2018-12-24T14:55:11Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > “But of Olorin [the _Quenta Silmarillion_] does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the prompting of wisdom that he put into their hearts.” So she probably didn’t know him from before. Cool, I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/27 "2018-12-24T15:56:36Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > “But of Olorin [the _Quenta Silmarillion_] does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the prompting of wisdom that he put into their hearts.” So she probably didn’t know him from before. So, with immortal, quasi-supernatural beings who can see the spirit world, he was sneaky and covert. But with us mere mortals, he was honest and direct. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/28 "2018-12-24T16:26:48Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > But with us mere mortals, he was honest and direct. About what - about being able to put on one hell of a fireworks show? (With the help of an Elf whose name was something like ‘Amy Surplus,’ of course. ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/29 "2018-12-24T17:24:51Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > For the Ringbearer, a frigging Istari, the Rightful King of Gondor WITH A REFORGED NARSIL, the son of the steward of Gondor, an elf and a dwarf along with their three minions to surreptitiously sneak into Mordor and throw the ring into Mount Doom? Real inconspicuous bunch there. They couldn’t even sneak through a dungeon without bringing the entire mountain and a frigging balrog down on them. What are they going to do in the open? This has “Party goes off the DM rails and throws together a shitty plan” written all over it. > > And what would they do when they got to the Black Gate? Taunt them into making a mistake? > > And finally in the book when it all falls apart…enhhhh…just let those two hobbits have a stab at it? > > Gandalf: “You just let Sam and Frodo go alone? Did you tell them about our plan for circumventing the Black Gate?” > > Aragorn: “…” The story was heavily influenced by Tolkiens WW1 experience, had Tolkien gone to Vietnam then the fellowship would have been aerially inserted by eagles. Instead they do it assbackwards and get extracted by Eagles. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/30 "2018-12-24T18:00:29Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > The story was heavily influenced by Tolkiens WW1 experience, had Tolkien gone to Vietnam then the fellowship would have been aerially inserted by eagles. Instead they do it assbackwards and get extracted by Eagles. Interesting. So the story would have been about the walk back and dealing with the huge mess they made by upsetting the power structure and all the petty chiefs and the ensuing chaos in the power vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/31 "2018-12-24T18:00:35Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > So, with immortal, quasi-supernatural beings who can see the spirit world, he was sneaky and covert. But with us mere mortals, he was honest and direct. > > Interesting. At home in Valinor, Olorin was basically demigod who could choose whether or not to wear a body like you’d choose whether to wear a coat. The Wizards, though, were severely restricted in power so as not to destroy a continent like the last time the Ainur actively fought against Bad Powers. Gandalf was issued one mortal-type physical body\*, which he was stuck with the entire time. So sneaky and covert was off the table. Plus, whatever his job was back West, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t “help the Incarnates take down Sauron”. So a different approach was called for, anyway. \*On the subject of whether Galadriel, et al, knew the wizards were maiar- _someone_ must have noticed that the old guys who stepped off the boat a thousand years ago were still around being old guys, as opposed to being dead guys. They had to have known something was weird here. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/32 "2018-12-24T20:45:50Z")
Cirdan, at least. must have known Gandalf was \*something \*- he gave him his ring, and after all, who \*else \*would be stepping off a boat from the West? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/33 "2018-12-24T21:27:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Cirdan, at least. must have known Gandalf was \*something \*- he gave him his ring, and after all, who \*else \*would be stepping off a boat from the West? From Appendix B (The Tale of Years): "…Cirdan later surrendered his [ring] to Mithrandir [Gandalf]. For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return. “Take this ring, Master”, he said, “for your labors will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you.” ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/34 "2018-12-24T21:34:05Z")
I recall a scene (post-destruction of the ring) where Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf are communicating telepathically. So I’d say there is no doubt that the loftiest elves knew exactly who Gandalf was. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/35 "2018-12-24T21:35:35Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Sauron may have been a bad egg (or was he?), but the Fellowship’s real master plan was to jinx the development of industrialization, urbanization, and democracy. And establish a whites-only hegemony. The next step would have been colonising and annexing the East and South and bringing civilisation to the swarthy inhabitants at sword-point. I never quite trusted the Rohirrim, and Saruman had a point about the straw-heads being a pack of brigands: they were always just a rabble-rouser and a barrel of ale away from mobbing up and smashing shop windows. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/36 "2018-12-25T00:45:38Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > So, with immortal, quasi-supernatural beings who can see the spirit world, he was sneaky and covert. But with us mere mortals, he was honest and direct. > > Interesting. Not really. There’s no indication Bilbo or Frodo or even Aragon knew that Gandalf was a Maiar. As far as the hobbits went, he was an old dude “wizard” whose wizarding was mainly fancy fireworks and hanging out with dwarves and elves. Aragon had a better understanding of how powerful Gandalf was, since as a Ranger he knew about the defeat of the sorcerer in The Hobbit and Gandalf’s long life, but I don’t think there’s any indication he knew Gandalf was a Maiar. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/37 "2018-12-25T21:03:17Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Not really. There’s no indication Bilbo or Frodo or even Aragon knew that Gandalf was a Maiar. As far as the hobbits went, he was an old dude “wizard” whose wizarding was mainly fancy fireworks and hanging out with dwarves and elves. > > Aragon had a better understanding of how powerful Gandalf was, since as a Ranger he knew about the defeat of the sorcerer in The Hobbit and Gandalf’s long life, but I don’t think there’s any indication he knew Gandalf was a Maiar. Agreed, there’s nothing in the books, but AragoRn was tutored by, and travelled extensively with, Gandalf. In all likelihood, he got to know something of Gandalf’s origins. He witnessed Gandalf using some pretty impressive powers, and Aragorn rubbed shoulders with old men and very old elves who knew Gandalf from back in the day. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/38 "2018-12-25T22:00:01Z")
Rather than give its own thread: The most unrealistic part of the great battles and dealing with Nazgul schreeching and wheeling about and massive boulders being hurled at you\*? Are there no curses in Middle Earth?? I mean seriously that crew and all those extras had to have been explicitly told that as instinctive it is, you can’t say “FUUUUCKKKKK!!” or “shit!” when immortal evil beings are sweeping you off the parapets. \*A failing in general of movie fights. Especially one on one hand to hand battles, is how quiet they are. Where’s the 'Fuck you you fucking fuck!!"?? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/39 "2018-12-25T22:12:22Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Rather than give its own thread: The most unrealistic part of the great battles and dealing with Nazgul schreeching and wheeling about and massive boulders being hurled at you\*? Are there no curses in Middle Earth?? I mean seriously that crew and all those extras had to have been explicitly told that as instinctive it is, you can’t say “FUUUUCKKKKK!!” or “shit!” when immortal evil beings are sweeping you off the parapets. The practical answer, of course, is that Tolkien was a Christian author in a time when such language simply wasn’t used in a formal setting, and that he was stylistically inspired by the Eddas and the Nordic/Anglo-Saxon lays. You don’t see a lot of “fucks” or “cuntflaps” in Chaucer or Beowulf. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/40 "2018-12-25T22:30:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The practical answer, of course, is that Tolkien was a Christian author in a time when such language simply wasn’t used in a formal setting, and that he was stylistically inspired by the Eddas and the Nordic/Anglo-Saxon lays. You don’t see a lot of “fucks” or “cuntflaps” in Chaucer or Beowulf. 🙂 Chaucer was _very_ happy punning on the word cunt: > [@](#): > > As clerkes ben ful subtile and ful queynte, > And prively he caughte hire by the queynte, > And seyde, “Ywis, but if ich have my wille, > For deerne love of thee, lemman, I spille.” [Skeptical Humanities, “Chaucer’s Cunt”](https://skepticalhumanities.com/2011/01/18/chaucers-cunt/) So, famously, was Shakespeare. Or did you think I meant country matters? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545.md?page=3)