# So...one more time...WHAT was the Fellowship's plan?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 22, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545 "2018-12-22T20:06:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/61 "2018-12-26T17:46:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think the idea isn’t that his memories were “wiped”, so much as that he couldn’t fit all of them in that mortal frame. Certainly, when he comes back as the White, he seems briefly mentally muddled while he tries to make sense of who he is and was. It’s one of those things that Tolkien leaves deliberately vague, which is one of his charms. The transition from a being of pure spirit and boundless power, to a powerful but temporal being in a physical body (Olorin to Gandalf the Grey back to Olorin and then to Gandalf the White) undoubtedly has lots of rules and ramifications that Tolkien declines to spell out in detail. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/62 "2018-12-26T18:34:44Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > It’s one of those things that Tolkien leaves deliberately vague, which is one of his charms. The transition from a being of pure spirit and boundless power, to a powerful but temporal being in a physical body (Olorin to Gandalf the Grey back to Olorin and then to Gandalf the White) undoubtedly has lots of rules and ramifications that Tolkien declines to spell out in detail. Yes, apparently being truly embodied sounds like a real drag. > [@](#): > > For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/63 "2018-12-26T22:11:25Z")
The world was changing and the time of the Elves was nearing its end. Defeating Sauron was actually a test to see if Man was worthy of inheriting the world. Just as a parent might guide a child riding a bike for the first time, eventually the child is on his own. The Wizards were sent to guide, but not do much more. The Elves, as well, could assist, but it was ultimately up to Man to take on the mantle of caretaker of Arda. This was why the Eagles stayed clear. As for the plan, one has to consider the nature of the Rings of Power. They all work by amplifying innate tendencies of the bearers. The 9 for Men amplified their lust for power, the 7 for Dwarves amplified their desire for riches, the 3 for Elves amplified their desire for stasis and preservation, and the One Ring would amplify whatever its bearer already was. This was why Gandalf believed the Hobbits might be useful. He had studied them and their nature for years and generations. They were generally without ambition. Their biggest concerns were food, drink, gardening, and their own genealogy. There’s a running gag in LOTR that most people, if they’ve even heard of “halflings” they have no stories of them. Some of that was their generally insular nature and some was that even when out in the world, they had a talent for not being noticed (as Gandalf discovered when hiring Bilbo as a burglar). Gandalf was hoping that the effect of the Ring on a hobbit would be minimal due to their modest nature. He followed one particular family that was somewhat adventurous, as he needed one that would at least leave the Shire, but was still “hobbity” enough to not let the Ring affect him so much. So, the hope was to somehow take advantage of the Hobbits’ natural tendencies and abilities. They had no full plan, but Gandalf hoped that by putting things in motion, giving the Ring to a Hobbit and moving Aragorn to take on his Kingly destiny, that “fate” would do what it would do. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/64 "2018-12-26T22:33:54Z")
> [@caligulathegod](#): > > This was why Gandalf believed the Hobbits might be useful. He had studied them and their nature for years and generations. They were generally without ambition. Their biggest concerns were food, drink, gardening, and their own genealogy. and no interest in machines more complicated than a garrotte or a Luger. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/65 "2018-12-27T00:46:23Z")
The actual truth about Bombadil, of course, is that he doesn’t fit the theology as described. But if you need to fit him in, he’s a minor god, not a demigod or angel, like Gandalf. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/66 "2018-12-27T01:58:30Z")
The actual truth about Tom Bombadil is that he’s a pair of Balrog wings in a trenchcoat. _nods sagely_ ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/67 "2018-12-27T02:07:44Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > and no interest in machines more complicated than a garrotte or a Luger. Luger?! Methinks you were watching the wrong Ralph Bakshi Wizard. 😉 –G! Peace be with you… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/68 "2018-12-27T04:07:43Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > Luger?! > > Methinks you were watching the wrong Ralph Bakshi Wizard. > 😉 > > –G! > Peace be with you… > 😃 From _Bored of the Rings_: > [@](#): > > Concerning Boggies > Boggies are an unattractive but annoying people whose numbers have decreased rather precipitously since the bottom fell out of the fairy-tale market. Slow and sullen, and yet dull, they prefer to lead simple lives of pastoral squalor. They don’t like machines more complicated than a garrote, a blackjack, or a luger, and they have always been shy of the “Big Folk” or “Biggers”, as they call us. As a rule they now avoid us, except on rare occasions when a hundred or so will get together to dry-gulch a lone farmer or hunter. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/69 "2018-12-27T15:23:27Z")
> [@Rocky\_from\_Plano](#): > > I was under the impression that Tom Bombadil was a Maia. Although the fact the ring had no effect on Tom, but Gandalf was afraid to touch, it might indicate Tom was something else. > … > Maybe Tom was a primeval spirit of light? I think that last is right. He definitely was above the Maier. It was movie-Gandalf that was afraid to handle the ring; book-Gandalf had no problems touching it, but did not wear it. I’d bet if he’d had, he would have gone invisible – unlike TB who did not – but we’ll never know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/70 "2018-12-27T16:42:41Z")
I think that the category that Bombadil fits into is “those beings who are Tom Bombadil”. He’s his own unique sort of thing, and there aren’t any other beings who are fundamentally like him. But if you insist on putting him in a category with other beings, I suppose that he could be a fey, like Goldberry or Ungoliant. Though it’s not a category that Tolkien goes into much detail about, in the finished works. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/71 "2018-12-27T19:02:12Z")
> [@caligulathegod](#): > > So, the hope was to somehow take advantage of the Hobbits’ natural tendencies and abilities. They had no full plan, but Gandalf hoped that by putting things in motion, giving the Ring to a Hobbit and moving Aragorn to take on his Kingly destiny, that “fate” would do what it would do. Your full post was ingenious, but Gandalf didn’t give the ring to a Hobbit. (Long after Isuldir was killed Déagol found it in the Anduin River; Smeagol / Gollum killed Deagol for it; Bilbo discovered it in Gollum’s cave and later reluctantly left it to Frodo.) ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/72 "2018-12-27T21:00:06Z")
When thinking about the Fellowship’s plan, what was _Boromir’s_ plan? Boromir: “It is a gift, let us use it against the enemy” Elrond & Gandalf: “Not a good idea, but we’re curious: How do you plan to use it?” Boromir: “We’ll \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_.” Boromir (and Faramir) want to use the Ring against Sauron’s forces. What does he plan to do with it? Yes, I know the answer is “greed would overcome him and he’ll turn into a new Dark Lord”. Let’s set that aside, since they didn’t know that. They genuinely believed they could make a use out of it to defend their homeland. They appeared sincere, neither was thinking “Heh-heh, those fools, the ring will be mine.” How did they think would it help Gondor? What would they have done with it? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/73 "2018-12-27T21:06:14Z")
Boromir wears the Ring and marches at the head of the armies of Gondor. It enhances his abilities as a leader, and his enhanced abilities as a leader further enhance the fighting ability of his troops, and so on. That’s really more the Ring’s primary use than the whole invisibility thing (which won’t work against serious enemies anyway): The invisibility is just a fluke side effect. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/74 "2018-12-27T21:23:12Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > When thinking about the Fellowship’s plan, what was _Boromir’s_ plan? > > Boromir: “It is a gift, let us use it against the enemy” > Elrond & Gandalf: “Not a good idea, but we’re curious: How do you plan to use it?” > Boromir: “We’ll \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_.” > > Boromir (and Faramir) want to use the Ring against Sauron’s forces. What does he plan to do with it? > > Yes, I know the answer is “greed would overcome him and he’ll turn into a new Dark Lord”. Let’s set that aside, since they didn’t know that. They genuinely believed they could make a use out of it to defend their homeland. They appeared sincere, neither was thinking “Heh-heh, those fools, the ring will be mine.” How did they think would it help Gondor? What would they have done with it? “It’s magic, right? Big magic, or we wouldn’t all be pissing our pants over it. I’m sure there must be _some_ way to use this amazing scary superweapon to amazingly scare the other guy.” ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/75 "2018-12-27T22:25:50Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Your full post was ingenious, but Gandalf didn’t give the ring to a Hobbit. (Long after Isuldir was killed Déagol found it in the Anduin River; Smeagol / Gollum killed Deagol for it; Bilbo discovered it in Gollum’s cave and later reluctantly left it to Frodo.) Thanks. Yeah, I kind of yadda yadda’d that. He trusted fate had made the correct decision for Frodo to have it. I suspect he even primed the pump a bit to encourage Frodo to do the job for the reasons already mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/76 "2018-12-27T23:52:37Z")
Had events gone a little differently: Aragorn: We’ve defeated Saurons forces in the North and have him bottled up beyond the wall. What of your mission to find The Ring and its bearer? Gandalf:… Gimli: Aye. We found the ringbearer. The new ringbearer. Aragorn: No. Gimli: Aye Sam has it. And he’s used it for that which wanted the most. Aragorn: He used it to marry Rosie didn’t he?? Gimli: Aye…ten kids. And they own five bars in Hobbitton and Bree… Aragorn: Don’t tell me… Gimli: I couldn’t help it. I bought a franchise. And a time share. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/77 "2018-12-28T02:45:11Z")
I believe the Fellowship’s plan was to conduct an impromptu incursion into Mordor to dispose of the Ring in the fires of Mount Doom. Frodo sort of serving as a “mission specialist” as “ring bearer” due to hobbits humble nature being less susceptible to the corrupting influence of the ring. Presumably Gandalf (strategy), Aragorn (recon), Legolas (sniper), Gimli (sapper/combat engineer) and Baromir (assault) collectively bringing enough combat experience and knowledge of local geography to navigate and either evade or neutralize any threats they may encounter along the way. The entourage of additional hobbits mostly serving as support and comic relief. But, as Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. This particular one-two mouth punch being Gandalf’s fall and the Uruk Hai killing Baromir and scattering the rest. But that didn’t change the overall objectives, so Frodo and Sam continued on, making their way to the objective and utilizing whatever resources they found at their disposal. > [@Chronos](#): > > Boromir wears the Ring and marches at the head of the armies of Gondor. It enhances his abilities as a leader, and his enhanced abilities as a leader further enhance the fighting ability of his troops, and so on. That’s really more the Ring’s primary use than the whole invisibility thing (which won’t work against serious enemies anyway): The invisibility is just a fluke side effect. Right. And as Gandalf pointed out, he would attempt to use the ring from a desire to do “good”. But it would “wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.” IOW, it would corrupt Baromir’s intentions and he would probably soon find himself at odds with Rohan and every other nation within marching distance. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/78 "2018-12-28T03:01:25Z")
One interesting issue is this: If Sauron gets the Ring, it’s game over, man. If the Ring is out of play, and Sauron overwhelms Middle-Earth, it’s also all over (and Gondor, the last major bulwark against Sauron, is in trouble). But those are not the only bad endings possible. If Sauron is overthrown by a powerful entity in control of the Ring, Middle-Earth is still screwed - it will be ruled by a dark lord or lady with a different name but no major difference in ruling strategy. It’s an open question of who could bear the Ring and use it offensively without being enslaved by Sauron - Saruman and Gandalf both could (but would become dark lords) and Galadriel believed that she could (and would thus become a dark lady). I’m pretty sure that Boromir would become another Nazgul, though, while Aragorn might very well be strong enough to … just become a different dark lord. The good guys have a really narrow path to victory - keep Sauron’s armies from winning long enough for the Ring to be destroyed by someone strong enough to resist the temptation to use it aggressively - and in fact, there is apparently no such person (Frodo couldn’t do it, after all). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/79 "2018-12-28T05:55:45Z")
Sam is the person who could do it. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545/80 "2018-12-28T08:05:58Z")
There is nobody at all who can resist the ring, because of the fallen nature of creation. Only the intervention of ‘grace’ allowed the ring to be destroyed. See Tolkien Letters #181: > [@](#): > > The final scene of the Quest was so shaped simply because having regard to the situation, and to the ‘characters’ of Frodo, Sam, and Gollum, those events seemed to me mechanically, morally, and psychologically credible. But, of course, if you wish for more reflection, I should say that within the mode of the story the ‘catastrophe’ _exemplifies_ (an aspect of) the familiar words: ‘Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.’ > > ‘Lead us not into temptation &c’ is the harder and the less often considered petition. The view, in the terms of my story, is that though every event or situation has (at least) two aspects: the history and development of the individual (it is something out of which he can get good, ultimate good, for himself, or fail to do so), and the history of the world (which depends on his action for its own sake) – still there are abnormal situations in which one may be placed. ‘Sacrificial’ situations, I should call them: sc. positions in which the ‘good’ of the world depends on the behaviour of an individual in circumstances which demand of him suffering and endurance far beyond the normal – even, it may happen (or seem, humanly speaking), demand a strength of body and mind which he does not possess: he is in a sense doomed to failure, doomed to fall to temptation or be broken by pressure against his ‘will’: that is against any choice he could make or would make unfettered, not under the duress. > > Frodo was in such a position: an apparently complete trap: a person of greater native power could probably never have resisted the Ring’s lure to power so long; a person of less power could not hope to resist it in the final decision. (Already Frodo had been unwilling to harm the Ring before he set out, and was incapable of surrendering it to Sam.) The Quest was bound to fail as a piece of world-plan, and also was bound to end in disaster as the story of humble Frodo’s development to the ‘noble’, his sanctification. Fail it would and did as far as Frodo considered alone was concerned. … > > But at this point the ‘salvation’ of the world and Frodo’s own ‘salvation’ is achieved by his previous _pity_ and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him, and could rob him in the end. To ‘pity’ him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He did rob him and injure him in the end – but by a ‘grace’, that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one cd. have done for Frodo! By a situation created by his ‘forgiveness’, he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden. He was very justly accorded the highest honours – since it is clear that he & Sam never concealed the precise course of events. Into the ultimate judgement upon Gollum I would not care to enquire. This would be to investigate ‘Goddes privitee’, as the Medievals said. Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him. His marvellous courage and endurance, as great as Frodo and Sam’s or greater, being devoted to evil was portentous, but not honourable. I am afraid, whatever our beliefs, we have to face the fact that there are persons who yield to temptation, reject their chances of nobility or salvation, and appear to be ‘damnable’. Their ‘damnability’ is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good). But we who are all ‘in the same boat’ must not usurp the Judge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-one-more-time-what-was-the-fellowships-plan/826545.md?page=5)