# So our bailout money isn't going to be used for what we thought it would? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527 "2008-10-25T16:57:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/41 "2008-10-26T10:50:19Z")
> [@](#): > > As the crisis worsens, the government’s reaction keeps changing. Lawmakers in both parties are starting to gripe that the bailout is turning out to be far different from what the Bush administration sold to Congress. To everyone who fell for Bush’s fearmongering _again_ and was attacking the Republican congressmen for not passing it at first, I’d like to take this opportunity to say “I told you so”. ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/42 "2008-10-26T10:59:22Z")
In the spring Paulsen said the economy was fine. Four months later the same guy said we were on the brink of collapse and only he could save us if we gave him a trillion dollars with no strings attached. These guys must be hung like herd animals because we never seem to tire of getting screwed by them. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/43 "2008-10-26T14:52:59Z")
[http://bailoutsleuth.com/](http://bailoutsleuth.com/) When the companies get their hands on the money they treat it like it is theirs. They believe in huge salaries and bonuses for themselves and their friends. Paulson promised to have transparency. They have been redacted the paper work. They have blacked out the parts which tell how much we are paying to audit and how much money is being given out to banks. That is not transparency. They lied about this. They can not be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/44 "2008-10-26T15:28:29Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Back around the beginning of the month, I kept hearing [how tough a bargain Hank Paulson would strike with those failing banks.](http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2008/10/dean-baker-on-t.html) Color me unimpressed. > > FWIW, [the WaPo also did a story about this](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/21/AR2008102102520.html) on Wednesday: > So the ‘bailout’ consists, in pretty sizable part at least, of giving sweet deals to healthy banks that don’t need help. > > Swell. :mad: Even the healthy banks that don’t _want_ help. Hmmm, at first blush I was convinced of the socialistic aspects of this bailout. But then I pictured this meeting. Company presidents gathered round a table with the leaders of a semi-planned economy, who tell all of the corporate leaders that they had better get behind the big program for the good of the country, and if they do they will be protected and richly rewarded. Meanwhile the smaller companies are forcibly merged, shut down, or left to go bust. It does remind me of a certain type of government, and it’s not socialism. Is there a way for me to say “hey, this reminds me of Fascism, and **I really mean it this time?** ” :mad: ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/45 "2008-10-26T15:57:19Z")
Is this an inopportune time to point out that if we are borrowing money (through t-bills) at 3 1/2%, and loaning it out to healthy banks at 5%, that the gov. is going to make a nice profit out of this? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/46 "2008-10-26T18:26:17Z")
> [@dgrdfd](#): > > Oh, fucking please. You know what this American economic downturn has confirmed for me? America’s absolute dominance of the rest of the world. There’s no question militarily no one can hold a candle to our fire. And even when WE fuck up we bring you to your knees. So yeah, China certainly owns us. :rolleyes: Yes, you have wrecked the world. You win. ---
**Author:** ![Peanut\_Gallery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/838e76/32.png) [@Peanut\_Gallery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanut_Gallery)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/47 "2008-10-26T18:27:53Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Is this an inopportune time to point out that if we are borrowing money (through t-bills) at 3 1/2%, and loaning it out to healthy banks at 5%, that the gov. is going to make a nice profit out of this? Yep. The opportune time to point that out will be when you are holding that so-far-imaginary profit in your hand. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/48 "2008-10-26T22:47:39Z")
> [@dgrdfd](#): > > Oh, fucking please. You know what this American economic downturn has confirmed for me? America’s absolute dominance of the rest of the world. There’s no question militarily no one can hold a candle to our fire. And even when WE fuck up we bring you to your knees. So yeah, China certainly owns us. :rolleyes: :dubious: While China isn’t going to attempt to cash in on those bonds any time soon, you know you’ll be paying dividends on those bonds when the economy starts to perk up again, right? IIRC the US is up to 40%+ of it’s total tax income being spent on paying the _interest_ on it’s mortgages. You can’t just ignore the debt; it’s not going to go away. So, if I get the gist of it, 40% of your (federal) tax dollars go to scratch China’s back and keep them from becoming . . . uppity. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/49 "2008-10-26T22:55:31Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Is this an inopportune time to point out that if we are borrowing money (through t-bills) at 3 1/2%, and loaning it out to healthy banks at 5%, that the gov. is going to make a nice profit out of this? You’re forgetting Opportunity Cost. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/50 "2008-10-26T23:23:37Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > You’re forgetting Opportunity Cost. Not to mention the government has some _really_ stupid buying habits, and almost _always_ sells the things it buys at a significant _loss_. What I’m wondering is what’s going to happen when the government decides to sell the shares in the various banking institutions. Flooding the market with shares tends to make the price _drop_. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/51 "2008-10-27T01:07:27Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Is this an inopportune time to point out that if we are borrowing money (through t-bills) at 3 1/2%, and loaning it out to healthy banks at 5%, that the gov. is going to make a nice profit out of this? Two questions: 1. How does this help deal with the financial (subprime/mortgage/credit/currency/whatever else) crisis? 2. If it was such a sweet deal that the banks couldn’t turn it down, doesn’t that suggest that Paulson could have struck an even more profitable deal with them? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/52 "2008-10-27T05:55:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Actually, there are four countries the United States absolutely cannot win a war against; > > Russia > England > France > China > > Oh, I’m sure those four couldn’t win either. But they quite literally COULD hold a candle to your fire - actually, a lot of them. I assure you the USA wouldn’t win. A war between and of those five countries is most assuredly going to be a tie. A very hot one. Actually, not so much a tie as a two-way loss. I do not understand the machismo of “we’re #1 and can obliterate any country we like”. Actually, in real terms, America can not even win a war in Vietnam or Iraq. A serious escalation would bring international condemnation and intervention. I doubt the world would stand by while America commits genocide anywhere. Most probably the world would unite against America like they did against Nazi Germany and, no matter what some people may think, America does not stand a chance against most of the world united. That posturing is silly and childish. And not true to reality. Countries who think they can dominate the world are well on their way to failure and downfall. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/53 "2008-10-27T06:45:33Z")
Who’s this “we” in the title? What “we” thought? What we radical lefty DFH thought was that the money would be parceled out to the benefit of rich old white men in suits, with a Republican representation rate of about 99%. Who we are assured, despite recent evidence, are wise in the ways of The Market. After all, don’t they make obscene amounts of money? And we know that The Market only rewards competence, because It Is Written. So we are assured that these are the best and wisest, their hands steady on the tiller, and the recent debacle was due to some unknowable force that unhinged the Free Market. Sunspots, maybe. Its a deranged sort of Social Darwinism, survival of the fattest. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/54 "2008-10-27T07:07:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Who’s this “we” in the title? What “we” thought? What we radical lefty DFH thought was that the money would be parceled out to the benefit of rich old white men in suits, with a Republican representation rate of about 99%. Who we are assured, despite recent evidence, are wise in the ways of The Market. After all, don’t they make obscene amounts of money? And we know that The Market only rewards competence, because It Is Written. > > So we are assured that these are the best and wisest, their hands steady on the tiller, and the recent debacle was due to some unknowable force that unhinged the Free Market. Sunspots, maybe. > > Its a deranged sort of Social Darwinism, survival of the fattest. That, sir, was poetry of the finest sort. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/55 "2008-10-27T07:42:14Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > That, sir, was poetry of the finest sort. Correct, that was an admirable twisting of the misappropriation of $700 billion taken from the taxpayers by the government into an attack on the free market. Bravo. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/56 "2008-10-27T08:14:35Z")
There is not now, nor has there ever been, any such thing as a “free market”. It is capitalist dogma, to be accepted on faith. I am perpetually astounded by how many men who pride themselves on being hard-headed and realistic will sombrely lecture on the principles of a thing none of them have ever seen, nor ever shall. Might as well be the migratory patterns of unicorn. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/57 "2008-10-27T13:44:02Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > A trillion on Iraq. A trillion on this economic big business bail-out. Where does 2 trillion come from, and why doesn’t it get spent on things I want, like the space program, or education, or healthcare, or blanketing the country in solar panels? > > I’m tired of hearing, “we can’t afford that.” This is (IMO) one of the best posts ever written for truth. Thank you, **levdrakon**. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/58 "2008-10-27T16:04:32Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I do not understand the machismo of “we’re #1 and can obliterate any country we like”. Actually, in real terms, America can not even win a war in Vietnam or Iraq. A serious escalation would bring international condemnation and intervention. I doubt the world would stand by while America commits genocide anywhere. Most probably the world would unite against America like they did against Nazi Germany and, no matter what some people may think, America does not stand a chance against most of the world united. That posturing is silly and childish. And not true to reality. > > Countries who think they can dominate the world are well on their way to failure and downfall. Waging war is good business. We have lost all conflicts with countries lately that have no air force and no navy. We get driven out at the end. War is obsolete and that is a lesson we can not learn. Iraq is a war for oil. it is always about money. You can not occupy another country. So in the end, what can you win? Want the oil in Iraq. Be a real caoitalist and buy it. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/59 "2008-10-27T21:07:54Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > This is (IMO) one of the best posts ever written for truth. Thank you, **levdrakon**. Thanks! > [@gonzomax](#): > > Waging war is good business. We have lost all conflicts with countries lately that have no air force and no navy. I don’t think we lose wars. We lose the peace. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527/60 "2008-10-27T21:35:06Z")
Paulson originally **wanted** a bailout bill under which [his decisions on allocating the money would not have been reviewable by any court or agency.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailout_bill#Sweeping_powers) That was not included in the final version – but has it made any difference?! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-bailout-money-isnt-going-to-be-used-for-what-we-thought-it-would/469527.md?page=2)