# So our fighter pilots take a little Speed...So what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412 "2003-01-03T14:14:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/21 "2003-01-03T16:35:31Z")
Ok, I checked the other two. Pemoline is Cylert, another stimulant used for ADHD, and is structurally similar to Ritalin and the amphetamines. [this report](http://www.biopsychiatry.com/pemoline.htm) from the Royal Air Force School of Aviation Medicine seems to indicate that they believe it to be suitable to these types of operations. Modafinil, on the other hand, is a newer drug that is _not_ related to the amphetamines. It seems to lack the dopamine releasing/reuptake blocking effects of the other drugs which is the main component of their abuse potential. Its CNS effects are currently not fully understood, so there dangers that we are not yet aware of, but initial reports [seem](http://modafinil.org/modafinil/modafinil-stimulant-3.htm) [to](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/GoodMorningAmerica/GMA011203Stay_awake_pill.html) [be](http://health.discovery.com/centers/sleepdreams/basics/wakeuppill.html) quite positive. Even so, it is not without side effects, though hallucinations are not listed as one of them. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/22 "2003-01-03T16:50:35Z")
[hijack] > [@](#): > > “This is speed,” Dr. Robert DuPont, former White House drug czar, told ABC. **“This is where we got the phrase, `speed kills.”'** UH, no. “Speed kills” refers to excessive highway speeds. :wally [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/23 "2003-01-03T17:02:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 5-HT \* > Methamphetamine is the most powerful of the bunch. however the biochemical reactions of all these drugs are basically identical, so a huge dose of dexedrine is just as bad as a small to moderate dose of meth. Hmmm. Since the government is pushing its drug use = terrorist support line, and ending those commercials with the URL [http://www.theantidrug.com](http://www.theantidrug.com) , perhaps looking at [http://www.theantidrug.com/drug\_info/drugs\_meth.html](http://www.theantidrug.com/drug_info/drugs_meth.html) is in order. So the military is fighting a war on terrorism, while providing drugs to its pilots that another part of the government says this means they are supporting terrorism. Is that about it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/24 "2003-01-03T17:13:08Z")
Well, it did. Right around 1967, when I was gleefully engaged in “hippy” culture, the “drug scene” was pretty benign: a lot of pot, a little acid, pretty much it. Then “meth” reared its ugly head and things went to hell in a hurry. Suddenly there were “speed freaks” amongst us, carrying weapons, ripping off people. And dying. Say what you will about pot, its damn hard to kill yourself with cookies and peanute butter. Right about that time, the slogan “Speed Kills” was adopted from the highway signs warning against excessive driving habits. Unlike some of our slang, like referring to pot as “dope”, there was not a hint of irony in it. Bit of history from the Ancient of Daze. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/25 "2003-01-03T17:15:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rsa \* > \*\*[hijack] > > UH, no. “Speed kills” refers to excessive highway speeds. :wally > [/hijack] \*\* [This site](http://www.acde.org/common/Meth.htm) disagrees. > [@](#): > > Injection of amphetamines dates from the 60’s, when some users began shooting the drug into their veins to achieve a more intense “high.” High-intensity users, who became known as “speed freaks,” would often inject amphetamine for days, until overcome by exhaustion or psychosis. The aggressive behavior of these users, their volatile temper, physical depletion, and profound weight loss gave rise to the once–familiar warning that “speed kills.” ---
**Author:** ![Coda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Coda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coda)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/26 "2003-01-03T18:48:42Z")
I think too many people in this thread are correlating the dexidrine the pilots are taking with the dark-circled-beaty-eyed tweaker meth-heads who are crazed on crystal meth. Dexidrine is a legal drug, manufactured for children and adults with ADD, depression, narcolepsy etc…etc… We’re not giving our guys an uncontrolled substance here. For over 50 years this has been going on and this is the only time [I think] it has been brought out in mass media as being bad. Lawyers will say it is what caused the Canadian friendly fire accident. But most likely those pilots who, _were being fired on incidently_ thought they were acting out of self defense. I would not assume flying around Afghanistan would be any less stressful knowing that behind any rock or tree there could be an AL-Quaeda operative with a stinger attached to his shoulder ready to shoot the jet you are flying out of the sky… ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/27 "2003-01-03T19:04:29Z")
I feel the need…for speed!!! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coda \* > If at the end of the trial the two pilots responsible for the friendly fire incident, get the max sentence of 64 years, will our pilots take that extra second to think about what they are firing at, and potentially miss the target in the future? > \*\* I would hope so. Those bombs don’t come back once they are released. It’s a lot easier to go back and re-bomb a target than to explain why you dropped a laser guided 2000 bomb on a wedding ceremoney or passenger train. I would have thought that tracer fire whizzing past your cockpit would serve as a natural amphetamine. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/28 "2003-01-03T23:28:39Z")
> [@](#): > > **lout: > Anyone who has actually used speed understands that this is a really bad idea, but typical of the “minds” running the mililtary.** I can think of more than a few military minds that I’d put up against yours any day of the week. I personally know people in the military that are Rhodes Scholars, Fullbright Scholars, graduates of the finest schools in the world, and all-around incredibly bright people. Do you have some support for your assertion that people in the military aren’t as intelligent as people that aren’t in the military? Or is it possible that you’re demeaning the minds in the military because their profession somehow offends your delicate, dove-like sensibilities? Or perhaps one of the side-effects of speed use is an inability to discern gross miscalculations and ridiculous generalizations in your own statements? > [@](#): > > \*\*Duckster: > So the military is fighting a war on terrorism, while providing drugs to its pilots that another part of the government says this means they are supporting terrorism. > > Is that about it?\*\* No, that’s not about it. The government is saying that some of the money used to buy illegal drugs on the black market goes into the coffers of terrorist and terrorist-related organizations. The uppers that the military provides to its pilots are not bought on the black market. They’re bought from companies like Pfizer and Eli Lilly. None of that money goes to terrorist organizations. Or is your point that the government is being hypocritical by allowing pilots to use drugs that it won’t allow people within the general populace to use? Well, 1) the drugs are provided under a doctor’s supervision; and 2) amphetamines of various types are already available by a prescription in the private sector. If you think you need amphetamines, go see your doctor. That’s what pilots have to do. Look, I’m in favor of the legalization of most types of drugs, but these arguments are silly. > [@](#): > > **msmith537: > I would have thought that tracer fire whizzing past your cockpit would serve as a natural amphetamine.** Uhh, no, that wouldn’t work. Unless I’ve missed some UN Resolution, anti-aircraft guns and SAM sites don’t fire warning shots. Nor do mountains. **Mapache** , I’m sorry for your loss. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/29 "2003-01-04T01:07:04Z")
I posted and asked about the OP’s linked article in the heavily hijacked [“Ask the Air Force Guy, again.”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146072) thread. Linked from that article is also [Performance Maintenence, During continuous Flight Operations (A Guide For Flight Surgeons)](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/navy/misc/NAVMEDP-6410.pdf) _warning pdf file_ Since it is a pdf I can’t cut’n’paste so I will repost what I put in the Airman thread: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by CarnalK ,quotes from above mentioned f. surgeon’s guide_ > “At low dosages amphetamines primarily increase alertness with significant side effects only beginning as the dosage increases…This is consistent with reports from USAF pilots during Desert Storm that stated that 5mg of dextro-mphetamine(dexedrine) helped maintain alertness without causing other changes in mood or perception” > > And next paragraph re Coffee/caffeine: > > “Based purely on efficacy [caffeine] is a second choice to amphetamines” - though d/t availability and low-abuse potential it still has utility. > On self-regulation/dosage: > > “The delegation of responsibility for the use of these medicatoins to the individual aviator, with close follow up by the flight surgeon is extremely important and the key to success in the operational theatre… If the operational tempo is intense enough to generate significant fatigue, then an overly restrictive medication protocol will probably lose its utility due to lack of flexibility.” ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/30 "2003-01-04T02:34:00Z")
**Age** you hit it on the money. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/31 "2003-01-04T15:25:06Z")
Well, not quite. **Age Quod Agis** says: "Well, 1) the drugs are provided under a doctor’s supervision; and 2) amphetamines of various types are already available by a prescription in the private sector. If you think you need amphetamines, go see your doctor. That’s what pilots have to do. " As you can see from the last quoted section from the flight surgeon manual,use of the drugs is at the pilots discretion with doctor follow up. Thats not really a doctor’s “supervision” and nowhere equivalent to a perscription. Do you think your doctor will prescribe you amphetamines because you need to drive all night?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/32 "2003-01-04T18:26:46Z")
Nice post **Age**. Welcome to the boards. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/33 "2003-01-05T03:05:51Z")
I have (legally) taken dexedrine before. 5mg is not much - kids who take dexedrine for ADHD are often given as much as 40-60mg per day. For an adult pilot in good physical condition, 5mg of dexedrine would basically just give him a bit more focus and alertness. By the way, Dexedrine and Ritalin are quite similar in effect, and are used interchangeably for ADHD. Some kids respond to the ritalin, some respond better to dexedrine. For you to have serious effects from Dexedrine, you have to take large amounts. Some people do get addicted to it, because it’s also a mood elevator. Taking 15mg at once can make you feel just great. Some addicts pop 15-25mg at a time, and do it 3 or 4 times a day. Their teeth chatter, they look all speedy, and eventually they physically and emotionally crash. From my understanding, in the current situation is in the public eye right now because one of the families of the soldiers that were killed in the friendly fire exercise are suing the government. One of the side effects of dexedrine is that it can cause poor impulse control. I took the Dex for a university study, and one of the tests was reaction time and impulse control. I had to sit in front of a computer with a display that had two squares that would light up randomly. If the green light went on, I was supposed to tap the enter key as quickly as I could. If the blue light went on, I wasn’t supposed to tap at all. The test was really long, so that you’d become bored, fatigued, and lose focus. After the test, we looked at the scores, and it was quite interesting. Without dexedrine, I scored two standard deviations above the norm in reaction time early on, but it diminished to just average as time progressed. With the dexedrine, it was higher all across the board, especially near the end but even in the beginning. However, the number of ‘false positives’ where I pressed the key when I shouldn’t have was also higher with the Dexedrine, and as I recall it got even higher as I became fatigued. This is the ‘impulse control’ part - I got worse at stopping myself when I saw the wrong light. In the case at hand, I think the family is trying to use the reduction in impulse control argument to say that the government was at fault for giving the pilot Dexedrine. Unfortunately, from my experience I don’t think they have a leg to stand on, because the transcript I heard didn’t really indicate poor impulse control - the pilot wasn’t presented with a snap decision. He took his time, and decided to drop his bombs. Anyway, 5 or 10 mg of Dexedrine is nothing. If pilots only take it occasionally for long missions, I’m pretty confident that it enhances their performance measurably. What I’d be worried about, though, is pilots who start to take it for short missions, then to get them through a long briefing, then occasionally in the morning before a long day, then at lunch as a pick-me-up… Typical addiction profile. I hope the government keeps a very tight control of that Dexedrine, because if pilots start popping it like candy a few of them will become unstable over time. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/34 "2003-01-05T14:35:27Z")
[digression] **Sam** , I thought that it was one of the pilots who was raising this issue as a defence om the court martial proceedings. Is one of the Canadian families also trying to sue the U.S. government? ---
**Author:** ![Coda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Coda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coda)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/35 "2003-01-05T17:09:42Z")
One, one thousdand Two, one thousdand Three, one thousdand Four, one thousdand Five, one thousdand Six, one thousdand Seven, one thousdand Eight, one thousdand Nine, one thousdand Ten, one thousdand Eleven, one thousdand Twelve, one thousdand Thirteen, one thousdand Fourteen, one thousdand Fifteen, one thousdand Sixteen, one thousdand That’s how long the pilot took to decide to fire on the target after he was told to hold fire. ---
**Author:** ![Coda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Coda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coda)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/36 "2003-01-05T17:13:05Z")
- damn I posted before I finished typing… _Ahem_ 16 seconds is a long time to when you count it out. I believe the pilot was pretty stressed, and must have been in a situation before where he was being fired upon. I’d imagine it happens a lot in Afghanistan. BUt 16 seconds then he fired, then he said to his co-pilot. _I hope we should have done that…_ Seems like an aweful long time to me. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/37 "2003-01-06T16:15:27Z")
Thanks to **CarnalK** fand **Sam Stone** for the additional information. And thanks to **Debaser** and **Philosphr** for the warm words. > [@](#): > > _CarnalK:_ > As you can see from the last quoted section from the flight surgeon manual,use of the drugs is at the pilots discretion with doctor follow up. Thats not really a doctor’s “supervision” and nowhere equivalent to a perscription. Do you think your doctor will prescribe you amphetamines because you need to drive all night? I’d agree that it’s not the same thing as a prescription, but I’d disagree with your statement that a “close follow up by the flight surgeon” is “not really a doctor’s ‘supervision.’” That’s precisely what the “close follow up” is for. Also, I don’t think a doctor would prescribe me amphetamines because I need to drive all night. But then again, if I get tired during a 16-hour drive, I can listen to the radio, or pull over and stretch my legs at a rest stop, or sip from a cup of coffee, or just decide I’m too tired to drive and stop at a motel for the night. My car is not a $50 million, state-owned, technologically-precise instrument of warfare. I’m also not driving through an area where people will be shooting missiles and gunfire at me. And at the end of my drive, I’m not asked to make the precise judgment calls necessary to distinguish between dropping bombs on our enemies, and our friends. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/38 "2003-01-08T02:08:57Z")
I agree with you **Age Quod Agis** for the most part (and welcome btw). I would just worry about this setup during extended combat tours. All you said is true about the need for an alert pilot(expense,judgement,no shoulder) but some might say that’s a reason to hire more pilots, though I’m sure the drugs are more cost effective. 🙂 (I realize that some individual flights are long, what is done about this in the private industry?) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/39 "2003-01-08T02:15:43Z")
Private industry generally has two pilots. Fighter pilots have only themselves. Private industry also has very strict rules about how much you can fly, which would be impractical in combat. ---
**Author:** ![Narile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@Narile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Narile)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412/40 "2003-01-10T01:55:19Z")
I emailed this thread to my brother, a former Navy pilot. His response was that he was never offered nor took any such drugs, but had heard they were used in the Air Force under strict supervision and tight controls. If I remember other talks with him correctly, even what drugs they are allowed to take to deal with minor problems (headaches, colds, etc) are pretty strictly defined. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-our-fighter-pilots-take-a-little-speed-so-what/146412.md?page=1)