# So Prigozhin is down before Putin **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [August 23, 2023, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988 "2023-08-23T17:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2023, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/81 "2023-09-01T05:23:53Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > a smartly-dressed gent wearing an awesome watch, who’d have made a pithy quip about “he didn’t give it the right spin” or something like that immediately after the cratering. Or something like “Coming in on one wing and a prayer”. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/82 "2023-09-03T15:10:50Z")
The Prime Minister of Albania tells a joke: > ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/83 "2023-10-03T11:49:54Z")
[Prigozhin is hailed as a hero by mourners at his grave. It wasn’t shown on Russian state TV or radio, though.](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/2/wagners-prigozhin-hailed-a-hero-40-days-after-death-in-plane-crash) ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/84 "2023-10-03T12:25:58Z")
> In the Eastern Orthodox church, it is believed that the soul makes its final journey to either heaven or hell on the 40th day after death. So hell it will be then. Strange that his admirers celebrate that, but what do I know about theology? Sadism was a central part of his life, let it be the key to his memory too. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/85 "2023-10-03T14:54:51Z")
The hate-filled thug who attacks another hate-filled thug who’s attacking me is my friend. Sorta. It’s no deeper than that. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/86 "2023-10-03T16:47:36Z")
That seldom works out for the better, remember the Taliban. The enemy of my enemy is the enemy of my enemy, nothing more and nothing less. I try to avoid interested parties telling me that the enemies of my enemies are my friends, because there is no correlation at all between Y being the enemy of X, X being an enemy of mine, and Y being a friend or an enemy of mine. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/87 "2023-10-03T16:52:47Z")
Of course not. As you say, it’s almost always a temporary pact with a devil. That doesn’t mean it’s an uncommon ploy especially by unsophisticated folks like the general public or by otherwise powerless minority groups. Human nature is timeless and most folks make bad decisions with a boot on their neck. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/88 "2023-10-03T16:53:09Z")
I think the proverb means “I can make use of the enemy of my enemy, because their enmity weakens my enemy to my benefit.” Not “I genuinely like all enemies of my enemy.” ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/89 "2023-10-03T16:58:18Z")
Yes, of course you are both right. It’s just that this stuff about enemies and retribution is so often used with spurious ends, it makes me mad and sad. I can think of no example of a pact with the devil right now were the devil is not the winner in the end. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/90 "2023-10-03T17:08:52Z")
“If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons.” — Winston S. Churchill, June, 1941 ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/91 "2023-10-03T17:15:11Z")
Compare what Churchill said about Hitler and Stalin before and after the Molotov-von Ribbentropp pact, after Hitler broke that pact and after Hitler’s defeat, all in just under five years 😃 I wonder whether he used the German word _Realpolitik_ for his changes of opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/92 "2023-10-03T17:37:01Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > Compare what Churchill said about Hitler and Stalin before and after the Molotov-von Ribbentropp pact, after Hitler broke that pact and after Hitler’s defeat, all in just under five years. 😃 I wonder whether he used the German word _Realpolitik_ for his changes of opinion? “We’ve always been at war with Eastasia”. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/93 "2023-10-05T06:42:03Z")
I doubt if his opinion actually changed, whatever the realpolitik. Was there really more praise for Stalin himself or for a generality such as “the Russian people”? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/94 "2023-10-05T18:23:29Z")
Putin weaving some new reality: > ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/95 "2023-10-05T18:30:46Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > [https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1709984130207793279](https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1709984130207793279) While that sounds bizarre to western ears, this is Russia we’re talking about. Plausible deniability? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/96 "2023-10-05T18:38:30Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Plausible deniability? I think it’s the most plausible denial we’ve ever heard from Putin. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/97 "2023-10-05T18:39:53Z")
That is not what Putin says, I just asked my wife to interpret that fragment for me (she is a professional Russian interpreter). Putin quotes the “investigating comittee”, who allowed him to publicly state as the official version that hand grenade shrapnel was found on the bodies of the victims, but not on the outside of the plane. There was no outside cause for the crash. No alcohol or “drugs” (no explicit mention of cocaine) were found on the corpses, but cocaine and 10 billion in cash were found by the FSB in a residence that belonged to Prigozhin. Fucking twitter! Anyone can post any shit and get attention instead of paying attention to what he really says. I don’t know what is true or not, but what Max Seddon claims is not at all what Putin has said. That is how fake news begin. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Plausible deniability? Well it is nobody’s fault now, right? Not his, not even the enemy’s. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/98 "2023-10-05T18:45:13Z")
If this is the Max Seddon in question: > Max Seddon has been the FT’s Moscow bureau chief since 2021 and leads coverage of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. He was previously a correspondent in the Moscow bureau, where he wrote about the tug-of-war over money and power between the Kremlin, Russian oligarchs, and state companies, as well as topics from the Orthodox Church to football. Before that, he covered Russia and Ukraine for BuzzFeed News and the Associated Press. then he should understand Russian better than that. Anyway, I trust my wife on Russian more than him. Make of that what you want. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/99 "2023-10-05T18:48:08Z")
On the question of Soviet alliances before and during World War II, people may be interested in the new book by the historian Michael Jabara Carley, Stalin’s Gamble: The Search for Allies Against Hitler, 1930-1936. According to the publisher, the University of Toronto Press, “the book explores the Soviet Union’s efforts to organize a defensive alliance against Nazi Germany, in effect rebuilding the anti-German Entente of the First World War.” ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988/100 "2023-10-05T18:48:40Z")
The Putin/official narrative has been to paint Prigozhin as a corrupt degenerate who brought his demise on himself, thereby attempting to avert any sentiment of reverance towards him among Russians or feelings of his martyrdom. > (This video has subtitles) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-prigozhin-is-down-before-putin/988988.md?page=6)