# So Russia has invaded Ukraine - or not? {It Has as of 2/24/2022} **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 22, 2022, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947 "2022-02-22T13:16:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jebert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ec9cab/32.png) [@jebert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jebert)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/1 "2022-02-22T13:16:08Z")
Recent news is that Russia is deploying troops into Donetsk and Luhansk in Ukraine. But the articles are not treating this as an invasion - just the next step by Putin. Why is this not considered to be an invasion of Ukraine? ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/2 "2022-02-22T13:30:02Z")
Yes, it is curious to me that the news media seems to have circled the wagons with the government in avoiding terming this as an invasion. I am suspecting that the government has pressured the media to frame it this way, in anticipation of some response. Because, _if_ we call it an **invasion** , _then_ the response **must be XYZ**. And we are just not quite ready for that… ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/3 "2022-02-22T13:47:49Z")
> [@jebert](#): > > Recent news is that Russia is deploying troops into Donetsk and Luhansk in Ukraine. But the articles are not treating this as an invasion - just the next step by Putin. Why is this not considered to be an invasion of Ukraine? Has it actually happened yet? The news I’m seeing claims that **[orders have been given](https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/21/europe/russia-ukraine-tensions-monday-intl/index.html)**, but have Russian troops actually entered Ukraine territory at this point? > [@Icarus](#): > > I am suspecting that the government has pressured the media to frame it this way, in anticipation of some response. Can you point to a precedent in the past few decades where the US government has pressured media to spin a story a certain way (and where the media, all of it, went along)? > [@Icarus](#): > > Because, _if_ we call it an **invasion** , _then_ the response **must be XYZ**. > > And we are just not quite ready for that… The US has been shipping weapons to Ukraine, but we won’t be providing boots on the ground. The response that we’ve been threatening, AIUI, is very severe economic sanctions. What makes you think we wouldn’t enact those sanctions the moment it’s clear that Russian troops are physically occupying Ukraine territory? That has been our publicly declared tripwire. If we wouldn’t actually enact sanctions at that point, then at what point do you think we would? ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/4 "2022-02-22T14:10:02Z")
I mean … it’s time we explain to Conservatives that the Latin Americans living undocumented in the US are on a ‘peacekeeping mission.’ That should put _that_ issue decisively to rest. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/5 "2022-02-22T14:27:40Z")
> To be clear: these measures are separate from and would be in addition to the swift and severe economic measures we have been preparing in coordination with Allies and partners should Russia further invade Ukraine. From [the Whitehouse](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/02/21/statement-by-press-secretary-jen-psaki-on-russian-announcement-on-eastern-ukraine/). Note that they say, “should Russia further invade” which implies Russia has invaded. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/6 "2022-02-22T14:43:02Z")
Russia appears to be taking territory like they did in 2014. So far the big invasion that seizes the capital and replaces the government is still on hold. I would imagine the pressure on the Ukraine military is enormous. Russia can safely shell most of the Ukraine without leaving home bases. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/7 "2022-02-22T14:44:45Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Because, _if_ we call it an **invasion** , _then_ the response **must be XYZ**. > > And we are just not quite ready for that… I assume the concern is that if US/Europe breaks out maximum sanctions over this, there’s nothing left to dissuade Putin from rolling on Kyiv aside from military action. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/8 "2022-02-22T15:04:58Z")
Last night I read a translation of an article making the claim that Russia is in _no position_ to invade because it’s too damn warm. They needed the ground to be frozen to move tanks in, and it’s well above freezing in the Ukraine. Hmm, looks like the original source is Russian, so make what you will of that: > **[Новая газета](https://novayagazeta-ru.translate.goog/articles/2022/02/13/tri-dnia-do-16-go?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en)** > > Журналистские расследования о коррупции в бизнесе и во власти, специальные репортажи с событий политической и культурной жизни, главные новости, галереи, онлайн-кинотеатр, мнения и рецензии ведущих журналистов и экспертов страны weird, translation isn’t loading… original Russian: > **[Новая газета](https://novayagazeta.ru/articles/2022/02/13/tri-dnia-do-16-go)** > > Журналистские расследования о коррупции в бизнесе и во власти, специальные репортажи с событий политической и культурной жизни, главные новости, галереи, онлайн-кинотеатр, мнения и рецензии ведущих журналистов и экспертов страны transiating site I used: > **[Google Translate Web - iTools](http://itools.com/tool/google-translate-web-page-translator)** > > Translate web pages to and from more than 100 languages ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/9 "2022-02-22T15:24:53Z")
Is the bright line officially crossed ? > **[Biden, Putin signal bigger confrontation ahead over Ukraine](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-europe-russia-vladimir-putin-46cef648807d0e3c2bac9793ad9022a6)** > > MOSCOW (AP) — The East-West faceoff over Ukraine escalated dramatically Tuesday, with Russian lawmakers authorizing President Vladimir Putin to use military force outside his country and U.S. President Joe Biden and European leaders responding by... Will the Worst of the Worst sanctions now be invoked ? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/10 "2022-02-22T15:50:25Z")
Europe is very dependent on Russian gas. That money helped build Russia’s military. I’m not sure how long Europe can sustain sanctions. > **[How Russia hooked Europe on its oil and gas – and overcame US efforts to...](https://news.yahoo.com/russia-hooked-europe-oil-gas-191602823.html)** > > Is it a weapon or merely trade? AP Photo/Dmitry LovetskyThe Biden administration hopes its threat of “severe economic consequences” deters Russia from invading Ukraine – an event Americans officials say could be imminent. In response, the U.S. said... ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/11 "2022-02-22T17:33:56Z")
I suspect that with the US saying that Russia was prepared to go in and murder everyone, they’ve decided to try and enter and behave as peacefully as possible, to let Ukraine be the one to start the fighting. As much as it’s an invasion, it’s more a trap being waved inside of Ukraine’s own territory. ---
**Author:** ![3AxisCtrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/ecd19e/32.png) [@3AxisCtrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3AxisCtrl)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/12 "2022-02-22T17:35:24Z")
Does Putin see this - or wish this to be seen - as the “minor incursion” that [Biden mentioned](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c67eB14OWJc) (and implied might not be viewed as all that serious) in late January? ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/13 "2022-02-22T18:52:40Z")
My reading is that the areas that the Russians have moved into are currently under control of the Russian-backed insurgents. So while it’s technically Ukrainian soil, the Ukrainian government isn’t running things there. That leaves the door open for Putin to say he’s protecting the ethnic Russians living in an area not under Ukrainian control. Is that an invasion? Putin has found a grey area where he can claim it is a peace-keeping force and not an invading force. That buys him time and gives him another place to launch a full-scale attack from should Ukraine try to reclaim those territories militarily, which they weren’t able to do even before the added Russian troops. Remember that Putin knows NATO won’t come to Ukraine’s aid unless a NATO country is attacked, which is unlikely. Putin is 6 moves ahead of everyone else in this dangerous chess game. How did the West not see this coming after Crimea? ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/14 "2022-02-22T18:56:50Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > My reading is that the areas that the Russians have moved into are currently under control of the Russian-backed insurgents. Yeah but, that’s been part of the Russian game all along. Move a lot of Russians in over time, then presto! It’s Russian territory. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/15 "2022-02-22T18:58:35Z")
It’s Crimea all over again. Soon there will be nothing left of Ukraine to save. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/16 "2022-02-22T19:13:04Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > How did the West not see this coming after Crimea? I think you’re being silly in this statement. Of course everyone saw this coming including “the West”. Ukraine has been screaming about it literally non-stop. The issue is, short of sending in troops and entering into a hot war with Russia there’s not much “the West” can do. After a decade in Afghanistan most folks are pretty touchy about that idea. Ukraine has been dicking around on whether they want to apply to be part of NATO or not and ultimately chose not to…and as predicted by everyone with 2 brain cells to rub together, this is what going to happen when that decision was made. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/17 "2022-02-22T19:33:09Z")
So the West knew this was possible, if not likely, to happen and the best they could come up with was sanctions that have been tried in the past and don’t really work? They could have sold/given a lot more sophisticated tactical weapons than they did or they could have not required Ukraine to give up its nukes. My understanding and I could be wrong, is that Ukraine wanted to join NATO, and NATO, realizing it might cause Russia, fearing a bordering NATO country, to launch an unprovoked attack to reclaim Ukraine, dragged their feet and hasn’t allowed it to happen. Perhaps this will now set that in motion. ---
**Author:** ![Kelevra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/97f17d/32.png) [@Kelevra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelevra)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/18 "2022-02-22T19:44:50Z")
Norway, Estonia and Latvia are current NATO countries that border Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/19 "2022-02-22T19:54:25Z")
A gamer I talk to online recently said of eastern Ukraine “that’s historically Russian territory and was only recently given to Ukraine in exchange for their cooperation on other matters.” I’m immediately skeptical of any claims of historic territory claims as borders over time tend to be rather fluid. I’m aware Ukraine was the very first SSR at the conclusion of the Russian civil war in 1922, and I could be wrong about this, but didn’t Ukraine get additional territory under Kruschev (he was Ukrainian by birth, wasn’t he) when he was premier? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947/20 "2022-02-22T20:33:54Z")
There are reports the US has sent anti-tank missiles to Ukraine. They’ve had eight years to strengthen their military. Crimera was a wake up call. Maybe the Ukraine can put up a good fight and get NATO assistance? Air power. No troops of course. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-russia-has-invaded-ukraine-or-not-it-has-as-of-2-24-2022/959947.md?page=2)