# So, should Hawaiian Airlines refund this woman's money? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 23, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855 "2003-06-23T20:07:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/1 "2003-06-23T20:07:29Z")
My wife sent me a link to [this story](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/127316_maui19.html) in today’s Seattle Post-Intelligencer: > [@](#): > > So how in the world did a runaway 13-year-old Normandy Park boy manage to get on an airplane flight without anyone asking for identification or checking with his parents? > > Simple, according to his mother. > > He skipped school, took a cab to Sea-Tac Airport and picked up a ticket he’d ordered online using her credit-card number. Then – off to the south satellite and aboard a plane for the island of Maui. There’s more to the story at the link above. So…at first I wanted to do a Pit rant about this woman’s lack of responsible parenting skills. Then I thought maybe she had a point, at least about airlines checking for ID. Then I wondered how the kid got her credit card number in the first place. Basically, my head spins. But I don’t think she should get her money back. The kid took the plane trip, after all. Anyone else have an opinion? (I kept this out of the Pit for now, but if it needs to head that way, so be it.) ---
**Author:** ![voguevixen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5ac83/32.png) [@voguevixen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voguevixen)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/2 "2003-06-23T20:41:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Interrobang!? \* > \*\* > So…at first I wanted to do a Pit rant about this woman’s lack of responsible parenting skills. Then I thought maybe she had a point, at least about airlines checking for ID. Then I wondered how the kid got her credit card number in the first place. > > \*\* So what if they did check his ID…wouldn’t the ticket have been in his name? I’m not sure what she’s getting at exactly. And sure the credit card would be in his mom’s name…how many 13 year-olds have their own credit card? If I worked at an airport I wouldn’t think twice about it. (They probably see dozens of kids flying alone a day because of divorces/custody or whatever.) I’m actually sorta sorry the kid got pinched when he got to Maui. That was a pretty clever plan, and the mom sounds like a spaz. (She called the school to “check up on him?!?” Yeesh.) I think the best she can hope for is to tell her credit card company the first ticket was a “fraudulent charge” but since it was her own son I doubt that’s going to hold water. Now that I’m thinking about it…wouldn’t the police have arranged for the airline to fly the kid back for free? I’m not sure how that would work. I’m sorta thinking she was dumb to buy the return ticket in the first place instead of demanding they bring him back. I’m going to go with: No refund for the first ticket. Possible refund for the return ticket. Sterilization for the mother. Kid gets to go back to Hawaii. My arbitrary, non-child-havin’, 2 cents worth. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/3 "2003-06-23T20:54:08Z")
My best guess: the mom had her credit card in her purse. Kid grabbed purse/wallet long enough to write down CC number, then put it back. This isn’t that difficult to imagine happening. I really don’t know if they should refund it or not. Lots of kids do fly unaccompanied, and he wasn’t that young. I’m not sure how they’d manage to check IDs for kids, or to confirm that a kid is allowed to travel. The calling the school to check up on him thing sounds odd, unless maybe he had a history of ditching school and she was doing that randomly to be sure he attended once he left the house in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/4 "2003-06-23T21:02:20Z")
I’m having a hard time blaming the mother on the evidence presented here. The kid scammed 'er. Plain and simple. He’d be spending his summer working that debt off, I can tell you, mister! ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/5 "2003-06-23T21:03:33Z")
> [@](#): > > I think the best she can hope for is to tell her credit card company the first ticket was a “fraudulent charge” but since it was her own son I doubt that’s going to hold water. I was wondering about that – it seems like the credit card company would be the logical place to contest the ticket charge. Even if he is her son, I doubt he’s an authorized user. The more I think about this, the less I think she deserves her money back, although I imagine HA might do it as a PR move. I can’t imagine the difficulties involved in verifying that every solo adolescent was flying with parental permission. Which would aggravate passengers more: making them come to the gate with their 14-year-old traveling child, or holding up the flight or even bumping the kid to a later one because they can’t get ahold of mom to verify flight permission? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/6 "2003-06-23T21:19:37Z")
> [@](#): > > I think the best she can hope for is to tell her credit card company the first ticket was a “fraudulent charge” but since it was her own son I doubt that’s going to hold water. It probably would hold water…if she agreed to cooperate with prosecuting her son for fraud. Which is about my opinion of how it should go. And while looking for a cardholder agrment to check , I found this instead [http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/la-fi-montalk5jan05,0,1091105.column](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/la-fi-montalk5jan05,0,1091105.column) ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/7 "2003-06-23T21:39:20Z")
I think the mother should suck up the charge and have her kid work to pay her back. By complaining to the airline and making it their problem, the mother is absolving her kid of any real sense of consequence to his actions. Hawaiian Airlines should not return her money. But they probably will. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/8 "2003-06-23T22:23:44Z")
Question: What \*is/i] the process for unaccompanied children these days? When I was a minor and went anywhere alone, my mom accompanied me all the way to the gate. With tighter security not letting anyone past the checkpoints without a boarding pass, what’s the procedure now? ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/9 "2003-06-24T00:09:39Z")
She needs to take the cost of the ticket out of her kid’s ass, not the airline’s. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/10 "2003-06-24T01:18:44Z")
I thought that when a minor flew unaccompanied, the parent or guardian was contacted by the airline if the minor did not provide an authorization letter or something. Sure, the ticket would be in the child’s name, and the credit card in the mother’s name, but the child needs authorization to use the credit card, right? One thing I’m definitely not sure about is the ID part. There are no minors living with me; do 13-year-olds have photo ID? ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/11 "2003-06-24T01:41:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*One thing I’m definitely not sure about is the ID part. There are no minors living with me; do 13-year-olds have photo ID? \*\* I had a (school) photo ID when that age. Also, regular ol’ identification cards are available from the state (at least the states I’ve lived in) pretty much for the asking/paying-of-fee. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/12 "2003-06-24T03:09:44Z")
> [@](#): > > What is the minimum age children can fly unescorted by an adult on your airline? > > Children under 12 years of age are accepted for transportation when accompanied by a passenger at least 16 years of age on the same flight and in the same compartment. > > … > > **Unaccompanied children must be brought to the airport by a parent, guardian or responsible adult who will stay with the child until enplanement and furnish evidence to Hawaiian Airlines that the child will be met by a parent, guardian or designated adult at the destination upon deplanement.** Hawaiian Airlines will escort the unaccompanied child from the boarding of the aircraft until the child is met at the destination. Hawaiian Airlines requires identification and signature of the person meeting the unaccompanied child. Service charges and certain restrictions may apply. Source: [http://hawaiianair.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/hawaiianair.cfg/php/enduser/std\_adp.php?p\_sid=ljh-1wMg&p\_lva=&p\_faqid=56&p\_created=962671325&p\_sp=cF9ncmlkc29ydD0mcF9yb3dfY250PTEmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD11bmFjY29tcGFuaWVkIG1pbm9yJnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9MyZwX3Byb2RfbHZsMT1\_YW55fiZwX3Byb2RfbHZsMj1\_YW55fiZwX3NvcnRfYnk9ZGZsdCZwX3BhZ2U9MQ\*\*&p\_li=](http://hawaiianair.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/hawaiianair.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_sid=ljh-1wMg&p_lva=&p_faqid=56&p_created=962671325&p_sp=cF9ncmlkc29ydD0mcF9yb3dfY250PTEmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD11bmFjY29tcGFuaWVkIG1pbm9yJnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9MyZwX3Byb2RfbHZsMT1_YW55fiZwX3Byb2RfbHZsMj1_YW55fiZwX3NvcnRfYnk9ZGZsdCZwX3BhZ2U9MQ**&p_li=) Notwithstanding the kid should have have to pay his mother back, the mother might just have a case with the airline for not following their own unaccompanied child policy. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/13 "2003-06-24T10:17:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GMRyujin \* > \*\*I had a (school) photo ID when that age. Also, regular ol’ identification cards are available from the state (at least the states I’ve lived in) pretty much for the asking/paying-of-fee. \*\* Okay, but they’re not required, right? If they’re not, and the airline requires photo ID before anyone can board, then why did they let him board? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/14 "2003-06-24T10:45:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Notwithstanding the kid should have have to pay his mother back, the mother might just have a case with the airline for not following their own unaccompanied child policy. Looks to me like that policy aplies to kids under 12. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/15 "2003-06-24T12:45:02Z")
Refund for the mother, if the airline can use the kid in a series of ads on how easy & convienent it is to fly their routes. 🙂 Military school for Le Brat. Valium for Mama. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/16 "2003-06-24T13:15:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*Okay, but they’re not required, right? If they’re not, and the airline requires photo ID before anyone can board, then why did they let him board? \*\* Airlines do not always require ID before boarding. I recently boarded 2 different Southwest Airlines planes without showing ID at the gate. Of course, I still had to show ID to a ticket agent. IMO, it’s the kid’s fault, not the airline’s. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/17 "2003-06-24T13:24:35Z")
You had to show some ID, **spooje** , just not at the gate. > [@](#): > > Transportation Security Administration screeners at airports require photo identification for people 18 years or older, to verify their spots on flights, but don’t require any for youths because most kids that age don’t have photo IDs, said TSA spokeswoman Suzanne Luber. Ok, so they required no photo ID. > [@](#): > > But airlines say many teens fly without their parents and that checking on them could be burdensome. Generally, airlines allow youths between 12 and 17 to travel this way, though some require younger kids to travel as “unaccompanied children,” watched all the way by jetliner crews for an extra charge. This bothers me a little. Apparently this airline isn’t too stringent about checking to see whether a child is even supposed to be on a particular flight. They don’t check with parents? What if they were runaways? What if the plane went down, and little Timmy’s parents had no idea he was on the plane? Now their child is missing, and yet if the airline had bothered to check ID and ascertain whether the parent had granted permission, the parents would know. And what if a terrorist organization decides to use children on commercial flights to do their dirty work? The airline’s not checking the kid’s ID too stringently, if at all, and they’re not checking with any parents. A terrorist-child (!) could easily board a flight, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/18 "2003-06-24T20:50:32Z")
> [@](#): > > What if the plane went down, and little Timmy’s parents had no idea he was on the plane? Now their child is missing, and yet if the airline had bothered to check ID and ascertain whether the parent had granted permission, the parents would know. Or if Timmy was on a train that derailed, or a city bus that was in an accident or in a movie theatre that had a fire, or on an amusement park ride that had a problem…or any of the other places that adolescents are commonly found without their parents. Apparently, its not uncommon for adolescents to fly alone. If it is common (and I suspect it is- airlines don’t have policies regarding 5 year olds flying alone because it never happens, and it would be more common with adolescents), it becomes impractical to check with every parent to catch that one kid in in however many hundreds who _doesn’t_ have permission ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/19 "2003-06-24T21:09:16Z")
> [@](#): > > What if the plane went down, and little Timmy’s parents had no idea he was on the plane? Now their child is missing, and yet if the airline had bothered to check ID and ascertain whether the parent had granted permission, the parents would know. Or if Timmy was on a train that derailed, or a city bus that was in an accident or in a movie theatre that had a fire, or on an amusement park ride that had a problem…or any of the other places that adolescents are commonly found without their parents. Apparently, its not uncommon for adolescents to fly alone. If it is common (and I suspect it is- airlines don’t have policies regarding 5 year olds flying alone because it never happens, and it would be more common with adolescents), it becomes impractical to check with every parent to catch that one kid in in however many hundreds who _doesn’t_ have permission ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/20 "2003-06-24T21:25:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by doreen \* > \*\*Looks to me like that policy aplies to kids under 12. \*\* Read that policy again. It says that children under twelve must be accompanied by an older person. Any children flying unaccompanied are presumably over 12 and must be brought to the airport by a responsible adult, etc. Looks like that kid flew in clear violation of the airline’s policy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855.md?page=2)