# So, should Hawaiian Airlines refund this woman's money? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 23, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855 "2003-06-23T20:07:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gwendee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@gwendee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gwendee)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/41 "2003-06-25T19:07:41Z")
A few years ago there was a similar story of a kid even younger who managed to get himself to the Bahamas or Bermuda - some paradise. I’ll try and dig up the story. Clearly the kid needs to be disciplined. At the same time, I can really feel for the mom who thinks things are rolling along one way and all of a suden Wham! an unanticipated $1800 charge on her credit card. I don’t know her specifics but that would really cause me a hardship. I imagine in her situation I would try to get the airline to lower the bill, too. I wouldn’t expect to be successful, but it would be foolish not to try. What’s with the kid though? I’m mad at my mom. I’m going to Hawaii!!! I used to get mad at my mom and go to…my room, or a friend’s house up the hill. How mad do you have to be at your mom not to imagine there would be some pretty severe consequences as a result of stealing $1800 from her? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/42 "2003-06-25T20:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > originally posted by dantheman > The airline is responsible for your child’s safety during a flight, just as the school is responsible for the child during an out-of-school event (or even an in-school one, really). If a child gets out of control - running up and down the aisles, to take an extreme example - the airline must do something to get him to stop. If they don’t, they are risking the safety of the other passengers. The airline is responsible for my child’s safety in the same way they are responsible for an adult passengers safety. If an adult is out-of-control, the airline must stop him as well to protect the other passengers’ safety. The airline only has the responsibility that either the law requires it to have or that it has agreed to take on. Why would the airline be responsible for a thirteen year old flyng without parental permission? There is no law requiring them to check for parental permission. There was clearly no agreement between the airline and the parent. Would I think I was liable for the damage my child caused while flying without permission? Well, it appears that in NY, I wouldn’t be unless I was negligent. Might I pay it anyway and make my child pay me back? Maybe. Would I sue the airline? Nope, no more than I would sue the public transportation system that let him leave NY and wind up in NJ. > [@](#): > > I don’t think a parent would particularly mind having to give permission for his or her child to fly unattended. It depends. If sending my responsible fourteen or fifteen year old to camp or to visit Grandma for a couple of weeks in the summer means that I will have to personally take her to the airport to leave, and go through whatever process someone can come up with to get her home. (I won’t be able to drop her off, and how would the airline verify that Grandma really is Grandma and that I gave permission for this flight), I might just decide a closer camp is a better idea or that the visit to Grandma can be postponed indefintely. > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Originally posted by doreen Except that a parent who is putting a child in a cab to the airport to fly alone isn’t going to give the child the credit card used to buy the ticket. > > Perhaps not. And of course, if the kid were really sly, he could fake a signed note and show the CC he used to buy the ticket. > > I’m not saying it’s foolproof, but it seems folly to not check on whether a child has permission to be on a plane or not. Simply buying a ticket shouldn’t be enough. Maybe i wasn’t clear enough. Say my child is going to fly alone to another state. I’m not taking him to the airport for whatever reason. Maybe just because he’s fifteen, responsible and it’s easier to send him by cab than deal with trying to park at the airport. He gets there and can’t fly without a permission slip. How does the airline know that I signed it? They don’t. Can they compare my signature to the one on my credit card? Only if I give it to my son for the duration of the trip. Will they even know that I am his mother? Not unless he also takes his birth certificate. Now i wouldn’t have a problem with my son taking his birth certificate along- it won’t affect me that he has it, and it’s not a big deal if it gets lost. My credit card is another story-even if I’m not afraid he’ll try to use it. If my child has to show my credit card to fly alone, he won’t be flying alone. And the drop in tickets sold by imposing new restrictions on children flying alone is something the airlines are going to consider. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/43 "2003-06-25T23:21:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by doreen \* > **The airline is responsible for my child’s safety in the same way they are responsible for an adult passengers safety. If an adult is out-of-control, the airline must stop him as well to protect the other passengers’ safety. The airline only has the responsibility that either the law requires it to have or that it has agreed to take on. Why would the airline be responsible for a thirteen year old flyng without parental permission? There is no law requiring them to check for parental permission. There was clearly no agreement between the airline and the parent.** Are you asking why would they be more responsible for the unauthorized child than, say, an adult? You’re right. There’s no agreement between the airline and the parent. So the child would neither expect or receive special treatment; he or she would be treated as any other passenger. > [@](#): > > It depends. If sending my responsible fourteen or fifteen year old to camp or to visit Grandma for a couple of weeks in the summer means that I will have to personally take her to the airport to leave, and go through whatever process someone can come up with to get her home. (I won’t be able to drop her off, and how would the airline verify that Grandma really is Grandma and that I gave permission for this flight), I might just decide a closer camp is a better idea or that the visit to Grandma can be postponed indefintely. I hope that by ‘depends’ you mean that the amount of work involved in granting permission would help determine your course of action. Dropping a kid off or walking them to the ticket counter seems a bit extreme, and I would hope no airline would insist on that. But to me the other extreme is no authorization whatsoever. I would hope a compromise could be reached that wasn’t a hassle to the parent but still satisfied the airline. > [@](#): > > Will they even know that I am his mother? Not unless he also takes his birth certificate. Now i wouldn’t have a problem with my son taking his birth certificate along- it won’t affect me that he has it, and it’s not a big deal if it gets lost. My credit card is another story-even if I’m not afraid he’ll try to use it. If my child has to show my credit card to fly alone, he won’t be flying alone. And the drop in tickets sold by imposing new restrictions on children flying alone is something the airlines are going to consider. Well now, see - here’s a compromise. The birth certificate, or a copy thereof. Or heck, even the SSN; that proves you’re you. I don’t think there would be a sufficiently large amount of drop offs to bother the airlines much. I don’t have data to support this, but I suspect that although minors flying solo is not rare, it’s also not common. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/44 "2003-06-26T04:14:55Z")
> [@](#): > > originally posted by dantheman > Well now, see - here’s a compromise. The birth certificate, or a copy thereof. Or heck, even the SSN; that proves you’re you. Not really. The birth certificate just shows his mother’s name- not her signature. To verify that I signed the note requires a comparison signature- and I absolutely wouldn’t give my child my credit card or driver’s license. About how many minors fly unaccompanied - according to [this article](http://www.familytravelforum.com/kidfly.html,) the DOT said there were more than 9 million in 2001, and according to [this one](http://o.seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/travel/134329975_fly19.html) a trade group says 7 million a year fly alone. Plenty of them are brought to the airport by their parents. But I’d bet at least one or two million either get there by cab, or are brought there by a non-parent (grandma, aunt, nanny, camp staff) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/45 "2003-06-26T09:44:45Z")
Bah… she raised a thieving little gippo… her fault. Incidentally, I started flying unaccompanied from London-Muscat (a bit below Saudi Arabia) when I was about 7, and later Orlando-London-Muscat… I considered it character-forming, and it was a lot easier to hit on stewardesses… sorry, flight attendants, without my parents around… ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/46 "2003-06-26T10:08:31Z")
That Seattle Times article is interesting. The article basically details how airlines deal with solo minors. But in these instances, the parent has to make some kind of arrangement with the airlines: > [@](#): > > If a child meets the age requirements and parents pay a fee of about $30, which most airlines require, the child will be supervised by an airline employee for the entire trip. Before the flight leaves, a parent must fill out paperwork and stay at the gate until the plane takes off. Now, this doesn’t address what would happen if a child just showed up at the airport with a ticket; presumably they’d let him on anyway (perhaps raise an eyebrow or two) and assume the child has all the permission necessary. But the fact that there’s an actual procedure - parents filling out paperwork at the airport and paying an additional fee - tells me that the airlines take this pretty seriously. It seems to me, from this article, that they would prefer that the child have some kind of authorization. True, that authorization involves the parent coming to the airport, so the question is: How often are kids just dropped off at the airport? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/47 "2003-06-26T10:26:14Z")
Actually, if you read the paragraph just above that , it says that most airlines list an unaccompanied minor as ages 5-11, with some going as high as 14 and some older teens can be listed as unacompanied minors for a fee. My guess is that many over 14 year olds do not have a parent waiting with them at the airport, at least not at both ends of the flight. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855/48 "2003-06-26T11:22:57Z")
You’re probably right. After all, at age 14 or higher, most kids can be trusted to get on a plane by themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-should-hawaiian-airlines-refund-this-womans-money/183855.md?page=2)