# So Sue Us!( Not happy we shot up your wedding party? Tell it to the judge...) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124 "2004-05-20T05:10:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/1 "2004-05-20T05:10:27Z")
It would appear that once again, the infernal practice of blowing off ordnance to congratulate newly weds has run afoul of hair-trigger response. > **[THE STRUGGLE FOR IRAQ: THE MILITARY; Disputed Strike By U.S. Leaves 40 Iraqis...](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/20/world/the-struggle-for-iraq-the-military-disputed-strike-by-us-leaves-40-iraqis-dead.html)** > > American military officials say they fired on suspected guerrilla safe house in attack that killed 40 Iraqis, but Iraqis say Americans strafed civilians at wedding party; Americans say they called in air support after coming under hostile fire, and... like similar incidents in Afghanistan the military spokesmen lead with a denial that it was a wedding, run a preposeterous story about coming under fire, and are left trying to explain the several bodies of dead children. One might well, of course, pull out thatches of hair over the idiotic impromptu fireworks , (partilcularly in a “free fire zone”, and yet… Given that we (often) snuff civilians, and in view of the present shambles of our policy, ought we not be more forthcoming. Like we could say, Hey, We killed your kids–sue us! This , of course , would represent a giant step forward, subjecting ourselves voluntarily to the tort system for the express purpose of providing the sense of fair redress that only comes after a jury delivers its verdict. The Debate: Resolved: The United States should waive sovereign immunity for tort claims arising from its military actions,and open the courts of the united states to litigation on behalf of iraqi citizens -with claims. Any other way of dealing with “collateral damage” leaves the malfeasor judging his own restitution Whatever the costs such an approach is the only way to demonstrate a sincere desire to compensate for the damage created by our behavior. Anything else is hypocrisy, and quickly branded such by world opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/2 "2004-05-20T06:09:15Z")
Put me down as an “aye” for your proposed resolution. There obviously has to be some other recourse than the military’s own tautological justifications for investigating and resolving these incidents. ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/3 "2004-05-20T07:13:14Z")
Do wedding ceremonies usually last until 2:45 in the morning? Do poor countrymen celebrating a wedding have millions of dollars in several foreign currencies laying about, forged passports from several countries, a large cache of weapons, and satellite communications equipment? Of course all of these can probably be explained in a completely innocent way, but to me it seems unlikely that what was happening there was innocent at all. The idea you propose is very interesting, though. It’s certainly true that the US military kills civilians, destroys private property, and generally makes a mess out of stuff quite often in foreign countries. If the military were subject to civil lawsuits from foreign citizens, it might help solve a lot of that. A problem I see with this idea is with how easily the system could be abused. Fifty thousand lawsuits arising from every military action the government takes is not unreasonable to assume, and the fact that many, or most of the lawsuits could potentially come from people who are not civilians, and whose intent was only to damage the US economy, is disturbing. Our enemies (not civilians) could use our own courts in such a way that they could cause a serious dent in government funding. Simply considering these cases (not even TRYING these cases) would cost a lot of money. How would you ensure that only legitimate cases are brought to American courts? I like the idea of holding the military responsible to civil lawsuits for its fuckups, but I don’t see a way to legislate it without giving terrorists or foreign armies another weapon to attack us with, this time directly against our economy. Another good point about this idea is that if a president were held accountable for a large portion of our tax dollars being given to foreigners who successfully sued us for his mistakes, it might end the huge popularity boost presidents have always gotten for making war. Without the popularity of the Iraq war and the operations in Afghanistan, George junior would be a complete failure, and a disaster of a candidate for reelection. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/4 "2004-05-20T07:38:38Z")
> [@EsotericEnigma](#): > > …Without the popularity of the Iraq war and the operations in Afghanistan, George junior would be a complete failure, and a disaster of a candidate for reelection. _Deft_ turn of irony there. May I be the first to offer my compliments? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/5 "2004-05-20T07:48:41Z")
> [@EsotericEnigma](#): > > Do wedding ceremonies usually last until 2:45 in the morning? Wedding _parties_ do. At least, they do in Ireland, and I would have thought in many, many other cultures. You guys just don’t know how to party. > [@EsotericEnigma](#): > > Do poor countrymen celebrating a wedding have millions of dollars in several foreign currencies laying about, forged passports from several countries, a large cache of weapons, and satellite communications equipment? Cite for some of the more colourful details? I’ve read reports of “cash” but not “millions of dollars in several foreign currencies”, of “passports” but not of “forged passports” and of “weapons” but not of “a large cache of weapons”. Why do you assume these people were poor? Cash plays a role in the wedding ceremonies of many cultures or, more pragmatically, it may be common in Iraq to pay for large celebrations, in cash, on the nail, or to give large cash wedding gifts. I see nothing odd about passports. Weapons presumably feature in Iraqi wedding celebrations, if only because we already know of the Iraqi custom of discharging weapons in the air by way of celebration. And the “satellite communications equipment”? Are we talking about a satellite phone, or a mobile TV broadcasting station? Unless we know the answer to this, I don’t think we can draw any very useful conclusions. We know that US forces have made this mistake at least once before. It wouldn’t be completely astonishing if they made it again. On the information that I’ve read, I think the jury is still out on this. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/6 "2004-05-20T11:06:14Z")
> [@EsotericEnigma](#): > > Do wedding ceremonies usually last until 2:45 in the morning? [Yes they do, try learning something about other cultures](http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=3937) > [@](#): > > BAGHDAD, April 2 ([IslamOnline.net](http://IslamOnline.net)) - Wedding nights have become “wedding days” in occupied Iraq, thanks to lack of security and stability in the war-scarred country. For fear of endless crimes committed under cover of night, Iraqis are usually forced to do away with a universally-recognized practice; to hold wedding celebrations at night. And the millions of dollars was in fact local currency to the value of 1600 dollars according to a post in a related thread here. Dammit - there’s film and independent reports that verify it was a wedding. Who knows, maybe there were dubious people in a house in a village but that does not justify bombing the place flat. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/7 "2004-05-20T11:40:09Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > Resolved: The United States should waive sovereign immunity for tort claims arising from its military actions,and open the courts of the united states to litigation on behalf of iraqi citizens -with claims. Never has my tag line been so appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/8 "2004-05-20T13:05:52Z")
Wedding parties don’t typically fight back, do they? There was antiaircraft fire and returned fire against coalition forces, according to the Pentagon. [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/9 "2004-05-20T13:18:52Z")
The incident took place 15 miles from the Syrian border - it’d be weird if foriegners, foriegn passports and foriegn money _wasn’t_ present. Hell, they probably needed passports just to get through US roadblocks. > [@](#): > > There was antiaircraft fire and returned fire against coalition forces, **according to the Pentagon.** :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/10 "2004-05-20T13:19:01Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Wedding parties don’t typically fight back, do they? There was antiaircraft fire and returned fire against coalition forces, according to the Pentagon. > > [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html) If I had guns that I had previously been firing into the air in celebration, I would fight back. Wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/11 "2004-05-20T13:25:35Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Wedding parties don’t typically fight back, do they? There was antiaircraft fire and returned fire against coalition forces, according to the Pentagon. > > [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html) > [@](#): > > The incident was first reported by Iraqi officials in the city of Ramadi, the provincial capital of Anbar province where the attack allegedly took place. Between 42 and 45 people were killed, according to Lieutenant-Colonel Ziyad al-Jbouri, the deputy police chief in Ramadi. He said the dead included 15 children and 10 women. [News Report](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=523055) I’m sorry but the word of the US Army on a matter of its own alleged screw-ups is not the be all and end all of the matter. Certainly not when there is plenty information suggesting the opposite. > [@](#): > > “This was a wedding and the planes came and attacked the people at a house. Is this the democracy and freedom that Bush has brought us? There was no reason,” said Dahham Harraj, one man filmed in an AP video. > > Television footage broadcast last night on the al-Arabiya television channel showed a truck laden with bodies. > > Men carried the bodies wrapped in blankets from the back of the truck into deep graves in the desert on the outskirts of Ramadi. One body, carried in a white blanket, was that of a young girl aged five or six. Other bodies, laid on the ground in a line, had clearly suffered horrific injuries. > > One man, wearing a white and black keffiyeh, told the television channel he saw the Americans bomb the village. “We were in Mukaradeeb. At 3am they rained the air with bombs,” he said. “One after another the bombs were falling. Three houses with the guests inside were hit. They fired as if there were an armoured brigade inside, not a wedding party.” [Another report](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1220750,00.html) Either there is a fairly widespread conspiracy to fake a wedding or the US ARMY screwed up. One there is evidence for, the other? Apply Occams Razor as neccesary. “Trust us!” Yea, right. That well has been sucked dry a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/12 "2004-05-20T13:30:08Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Wedding parties don’t typically fight back, do they? There was antiaircraft fire and returned fire against coalition forces, according to the Pentagon. > > [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html) “According to the Pentagon,” huh? Is this the same Pentagon that, for instance, [told us Gen. Mowhoush had died of natural causes](http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~11676~2157003,00.html) while being interrogated? > [@](#): > > In the case of Iraqi Major General Abed Hamed Mowhoush, who headed Saddam Hussein’s air force, intelligence officers’ role was documented in abuse that soon turned fatal, documents show, > > Mowhoush, considered a “high-priority target,” turned himself in for questioning in November, according to documents. After two weeks in custody at an Al Qaim detention facility, northwest of Baghdad, two soldiers with the 66th Military Intelligence Company, slid a sleeping bag over his body, except for his feet, and began questioning him as they rolled him repeatedly from his back to his stomach, the documents show. > > Then, one of the soldiers, an interrogator, sat on Mowhoush’s chest and placed his hands over the prisoner’s mouth, according to the report: “During this interrogation, the (general) became non-responsive, medics were called and he was later pronounced dead.” According to the documents, “The preliminary report lists the cause of death as asphyxia due to smothering and chest compressions.” > > Immediately after Mowhoush’s death was reported, U.S. military officials released a statement acknowledging he died during an interview. > > “Mowhoush said he didn’t feel well and subsequently lost consciousness,” read the press statement, which is still posted on a Pentagon website. “The soldier questioning him found no pulse, then conducted CPR and called for medical authorities. According to the on-site surgeon, it appeared Mowhouse died of natural causes.” Pardon me if I’m having just a little bit of trouble taking the Pentagon at its word these days. I’m gonna wait a bit and see what shakes out, if you don’t mind. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/13 "2004-05-20T13:30:57Z")
And more - even the handpicked rats are eyeing the gangplank uneasily. > [@](#): > > Family mourners at the Baghdad funeral of a well-known wedding singer and his musician brother told Reuters that they were killed after performing at celebrations that were attacked by U.S. helicopters early Wednesday near the Syrian border. > > A member of Iraq’s U.S.-appointed Governing Council said he found it hard to believe the U.S. version of events: > > “Their story does not look very convincing,” Mahmoud Othman told Reuters. “I think they have made a mistake.” [Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5206389) ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/14 "2004-05-20T13:31:14Z")
One American citizen gets killed and “let’s kill them all,” “BFD about torture,” and/or “the lowly Arabs weren’t pissed off enough about the ONE murder.” Americans slaugther a bunch of innocent civillians and “so, sue me.” Some wonder why we aren’t too well liked worldwide . :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/15 "2004-05-20T13:32:01Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > [Yes they do, try learning something about other cultures](http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=3937) Your attitude was uncalled for here. And you don’t have to know anything about other cultures to know that yes, people party until the wee small hours. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/16 "2004-05-20T13:38:43Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Your attitude was uncalled for here. And you don’t have to know anything about other cultures to know that yes, people party until the wee small hours. [/QUOTE] Well, perhaps people should think about spending the 10 seconds it took to uncover some basic information before demanding a cite or spinning exculpatory hypotheses. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/17 "2004-05-20T13:43:06Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Either there is a fairly widespread conspiracy to fake a wedding or the US ARMY screwed up. One there is evidence for, the other? Apply Occams Razor as neccesary. Or the freakin’ wedding party screwed up. This is a freakin’ WAR ZONE, folks! Shooting off lots of firearms randomly into the air really just isn’t a very good idea right now! Maybe, just maybe, this custom could be suspended until things have quieted down a little. > [@](#): > > “Trust us!” Yea, right. That well has been sucked dry a long time ago. The “blame America first” attitude is getting pretty tiresome, too. This incident may have been a mistake, but it was a very understandable mistake. If the lefties want us to take their criticisms seriously, they should make more of an attempt to be even-handed and fair–or at least try not to be so blatant and obvious about their prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/18 "2004-05-20T13:47:28Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > …it was a very understandable mistake. No it wasn’t, it was a very stupid mistake. Despite the similar Afghan incident, are these pilots still not aware of the possibility that weddings and gunfire might be related? ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/19 "2004-05-20T13:54:08Z")
As blood thirsty Christian Americans, they probably don’t care. Just another chance to kill some brown Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124/20 "2004-05-20T14:03:57Z")
I recognize that there are certain “cultural practices” that we need to learn to respect. But you would think that after the third or fourth wedding party we bombed (because the celebratory gunfire spooked the pilots) that the Iraqis would learn the simple, simple, lesson: **When there are crazy pissed-off Americans in your country who attack out of a pitch-black sky with 500-lb bombs and who seem unable to tell a military target from a civilian target, do not shoot your gun up in the air at night, for lo, that appears to piss them off pretty good, boy howdy.** [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-sue-us-not-happy-we-shot-up-your-wedding-party-tell-it-to-the-judge/246124.md?page=2)