# So tell me a bit about Zen Buddhism **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833 "2010-05-09T20:13:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/21 "2010-05-10T17:59:21Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > We all within us have this sense of Who We Are, this mental narrative that defines our experience, and Zen teaches that this narrative is ultimately what causes us to suffer. In my case, I originally didn’t have anything close to a positive sense of Who I Am (part of that was my adoptive upbringing, not being connected to my roots, but most of it was my alienation from my peers-all during school I only found one person who was like me at all). Oh, I had a darkly negative and self-defeating narrative all right, as I/I’ve said. I had to discover/create a positive one so that I could move beyond them all; my biggest dilemma now is what to replace it with-I almost am too quick now to call attention to my illusions whenever they show up. But a large chunk of the stuff which used to bug me don’t anymore. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/22 "2010-05-10T21:17:19Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > So, what’s your experience with Zen Buddhism? Generally positive, but not easy. > [@](#): > > If you consider yourself a follower, do you do sitting meditation daily? Yes. Also diverse other forms of meditation. > [@](#): > > Attend things? I’ve attended retreats in the past, but I doubt I’d do it again. Didn’t do much for me. If I were in Japan, I’d probably attend shrine holidays or somesuch. > [@](#): > > Is it all woo-woo and shit, or what? Not for me. I mostly express Zen in my art and craft, there’s nothing woo about an ink painting. > [@](#): > > What kinds of people are Zen Buddhists? Around here? around 40% hippies, 40% middle-aged people dissatisfied with Christianity, and around 20% other (otaku Japanophiles, etc) > [@](#): > > (Crystal healing vibrations ladies and martial arts scrawny guys in Japanese 101? Because I took two years of Japanese and those guys can be really obnoxious.) Around here, the MA guys seem to gravitate to either Chinese woo or “ninjitsu”, the seem to skip Zen completely. > [@](#): > > How did you decide it was for you, if it was for you? Visited the temple, sat zazen, attended some lectures, did some reading. I was already fairly heavily into Medieval Japan before, ever since _Shogun_, and I was also familiar with Therevada Buddhism through friends, so it followed fairly easily from there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/23 "2010-05-10T22:03:58Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > The purpose of Zen is to cut through the mental bullshit and experience life directly. We all within us have this sense of Who We Are, this mental narrative that defines our experience, and Zen teaches that this narrative is ultimately what causes us to suffer. Zen practice is about learning to observe your thoughts and environment without judging them, becoming overly attached to them, or convinced they have special meaning. But, seriously, what good is **that?!** Doesn’t sound like much of a way to live. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/24 "2010-05-10T22:58:57Z")
I like the disciplines and trappings of Zen, but I find that a life fully devoid of suffering wouldn’t be very much fun neither. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/25 "2010-05-10T23:19:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, seriously, what good is **that?!** Doesn’t sound like much of a way to live. Well, for instance, I was late for the dentist. I felt incredibly stressed and keyed up, and generally miserable as I raced there in my car. I had been practicing mindfulness for a few weeks, so I was able to tune into the barely conscious narrative running through my brain. I realized that I was thinking I \*should \*be on time. Essentially my mind was having the irrational thought that I should somehow change things so that I was not late, and was sending panicky signals to my sympathetic nervous system, triggering the fight-or-flight reaction. Before my class, I wouldn’t have had the focus and the distance to look at these thoughts and my reactivity to them in an objective manner. I would have simply gone with the reaction, been stressed and miserable, and later probably felt like I needed a drink or dessert to soothe myself. As it was, once I recognized the thoughts, it was quite easy to dismiss them in favor of reality - I was late. There was no traveling back in time to change it. The best I could do was avoid further delay, which I was doing. My stress response stopped and I felt much better. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/26 "2010-05-10T23:40:52Z")
I knew a Zen Buddhist girl and she’d hand me flyers for it, but the flyers pretty much would say something along the lines of, “There is deeper meaning written in these words.” But there wouldn’t be any other words. Literally. It would be like that one sentence rewritten a few dozen or hundred times, with slight variation in how it was phrased and how much mysticalness it had. But basically the idea of Zen is to clear your mind so that you can experience a sort of high once you’ve actually successfully gotten your senses and thoughts down to zero. Between that or sitting for several hours each day and _thinking_, I’d personally encourage the latter. Rational thought is far more productive, especially if you take it like a scientist and always consider every idea suspicious and probably wrong. Read a lot as well, of course, from all different sources, except from people who are woo. That’s just woo. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/27 "2010-05-10T23:48:54Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I knew a Zen Buddhist girl and she’d hand me flyers for it, but the flyers pretty much would say something along the lines of, “There is deeper meaning written in these words.” But there wouldn’t be any other words. Literally. It would be like that one sentence rewritten a few dozen or hundred times, with slight variation in how it was phrased and how much mysticalness it had. > > But basically the idea of Zen is to clear your mind so that you can experience a sort of high once you’ve actually successfully gotten your senses and thoughts down to zero. Between that or sitting for several hours each day and _thinking_, I’d personally encourage the latter. Rational thought is far more productive, especially if you take it like a scientist and always consider every idea suspicious and probably wrong. Read a lot as well, of course, from all different sources, except from people who are woo. That’s just woo. 😉 Not to be all critical and I **certainly** don’t mean to imply you’re deliberately misrepresenting, but mightn’t the fine young lady you refer to possibly be a poor example of a Zen Buddhist? It’s clearly a pretty inclusive club, and if we let the Mormons be Christians perhaps there are some real nuts under the Buddhist banner as well. I mean, **Unauthorized Cinnamon** ’s description of deflating dental delay distress doesn’t sound all that nutty; I do the same sort of thing myself. (_Without_ Buddhism.) From here on the outside it’s a bit hard to tell the proportions of fruits and nuts in the trail mix there, so maybe the crazy ones are uncommon. Or not, I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/28 "2010-05-11T00:00:44Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Not to be all critical and I **certainly** don’t mean to imply you’re deliberately misrepresenting, but mightn’t the fine young lady you refer to possibly be a poor example of a Zen Buddhist? It’s clearly a pretty inclusive club, and if we let the Mormons be Christians perhaps there are some real nuts under the Buddhist banner as well. I mean, **Unauthorized Cinnamon** ’s description of deflating dental delay distress doesn’t sound all that nutty; I do the same sort of thing myself. (_Without_ Buddhism.) From here on the outside it’s a bit hard to tell the proportions of fruits and nuts in the trail mix there, so maybe the crazy ones are uncommon. Or not, I dunno. Oh yes, certainly. But at the same time, rational thought can do pain management and stuff as well. From knowing that people can control their body, to some extent, consciously and from knowing that things like pain are just signals, you can practice high-level control of your body and practice ignoring pain. But you don’t really need to subscribe to a school of philosophy to accomplish that, you just need to know that it’s possible, and work at it. For instance, if I have a headache, so long as I’m not doing anything else I can concentrate on reinterpreting the data on pressure at which point it doesn’t hurt, and I can get to sleep. Even still, it’s better and easier to just take an aspirin. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/29 "2010-05-11T00:30:43Z")
I got a copy of Zen Flesh, Zen Bones a few years ago. I’ve read it I know not how many times. I’ve meditated on some of its koans. But while watching the Richard Gere special on Buddha, I came to a very strong conclusion. I think he was wrong. The nature of existence is NOT suffering. Lao Tsu looked at life and said it was sweet. If we accept that both these men were wise, we can come to only one conclusion. _The nature of existence is up for debate_. If Buddha’s first premise was wrong (the nature of existence is suffering), then his conclusions are almost certainly wrong. I look in my own life and find that while there is suffering and dissatisfaction, there is also sweetness, laughter and joy. Why give up who I am? I am unique, maybe even special. To quote a poem from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones “Inch foot time gem This moment will not come again Each moment is a precious gem” Isn’t that also true of me? And of each of you? How then is self an illusion? In order to be reborn (in any sense) I have to exist first. If _I_ exist, how am I an illusion? While I remain fascinated by the wisdom in ZF, ZB I’ve been meaning to look into Taoism and see if I agree with it. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/30 "2010-05-11T00:41:10Z")
In a nutshell- Those who know, don’t say; Those who say, don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/31 "2010-05-11T00:44:51Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > In a nutshell- > > Those who know, don’t say; Those who say, don’t know. I call BS on this. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/32 "2010-05-11T01:47:11Z")
Yeah, some Bodhisattva. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/33 "2010-05-11T01:51:41Z")
Whilst walking to the store for ice cream, I remembered something- a Buddhist parable I first read in issue of Spider-Man. “A journeying monk is taking a walk. He hears a sound behind him. The monk turns and sees a tiger. The monk holds still and waits. But, the tiger does not walk away. It is hungry. It bears it’s fangs and begins moving towards the monk. The monk begins to back away. The tiger moves faster. The monk turns and runs. He can hear the tiger behind him. He runs and runs. The monk sees that there is a sheer drop ahead. But the tiger is close behind him. So he jumps. He manages to catch onto a branch. He looks at it and sees strawberries growing on the branch. The monk looks down and sees another tiger waiting far below him. He looks up and sees the tiger above. Then, he hears a sound. He looks again at the branch and sees mice gnawing on it. Soon, the branch will be gone and he will fall. With one hand, the monk grabs some strawberries. With the other hand, he lets go. The monk pops the strawberries in his mouth. How sweet they tasted!” Now, on the one hand, the parable says that only after accepting the death of self (by letting go of the branch) does the monk experience happiness. However, even while falling to his death the monk sees life as sweet. He looks at life and sees pleasure, not suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/34 "2010-05-11T01:54:12Z")
Either that or he’s a hedonist. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/35 "2010-05-11T02:01:55Z")
The basic idea is to get a Prozac disposition inside a dissociative cannabis euphoria without using exogenous chemicals. Couch an explanation for how you get there in an assortment of buzzworded pablum that boils down to something that sounds otherworldly without being so specific as to be scientifically testable, and you got yourself Zen Buddhism. Pretend any teachings (especially historic traditions) that are obvious scientific nonsense are just misunderstandings by the “unenlightened” or else not a core Truth. No physical problem (other than your own state of mind) actually solved; no physical suffering actually alleviated. No charge. And I’m not trying to be cynical. Really. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/36 "2010-05-11T02:09:37Z")
I’m about the least religious person you could imagine, but I find Zen Buddhism to be the most attractive “religions” out there (if it is a religion at all). The general philosophy pretty much just keeps things in perspective, keeps things simple, and keeps things focused. > [@Chief Pendant](#): > > … > No physical problem (other than your own state of mind) actually solved… Don’t underestimate the problems people have their state of mind. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/37 "2010-05-11T02:27:50Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > However, even while falling to his death the monk sees life as sweet. He looks at life and sees pleasure, not suffering. Because he realizes and accepts his death, so he’s able to let go of anticipation. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/38 "2010-05-11T02:29:46Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > The basic idea is to get a Prozac disposition inside a dissociative cannabis euphoria without using exogenous chemicals. If you’re saying that the idea is to attain elevated mood without using drugs - that’s a good thing, right? > [@](#): > > Couch an explanation for how you get there in an assortment of buzzworded pablum that boils down to something that sounds otherworldly without being so specific as to be scientifically testable, and you got yourself Zen Buddhism. Pretend any teachings (especially historic traditions) that are obvious scientific nonsense are just misunderstandings by the “unenlightened” or else not a core Truth. Well, here I agree with you, as far as it goes. But I think Zen is the form of Buddhism least infected with religiosity and woo. Far from buzzworded otherworldly pablum, Zen Buddhism could be described as simply as, “When you’re eating a tangerine, just eat the damn tangerine - don’t worry about the mortgage payment, fantasize about your next vacation, or plan your grocery list.” As for what is fixed, as was pointed out, mental problems can be huge. And there’s a wealth of evidence that mental state influences physical state. (For instance, constant stress suppresses the immune system.) Also, mindfulness and meditation have been associated in improvement in blood pressure, and even in faster response to psoriasis treatment. And people like John Kabat Zinn and Barbara Fredrickson are indeed studying mindfulness and its effects, far from handwaving and mystical evasion. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/39 "2010-05-11T02:44:34Z")
What do people think about Pure Land? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/40 "2010-05-11T03:00:36Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > What do people think about Pure Land? [The horse from Ren And Stimpy]Well sir, I don’t like it[The horse from Ren and Stimpy] What does living in a degenerate age have to do with attaining enlightenment? Why does Amitahba get to give everybody a ‘get out of samsara free’ card? What in the nine hells kind of Buddhism places the means for getting enlightenment in somebody else’s hands? Correct me if I’m mistaken in my impression of Amidism. But, from what little I know, I don’t like it a bit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833.md?page=3)