# So tell me a bit about Zen Buddhism **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833 "2010-05-09T20:13:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/41 "2010-05-11T05:14:40Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > What does living in a degenerate age have to do with attaining enlightenment? Because we live in a wicked and corrupt age, people aren’t able to follow the teachings of the Buddhas anymore. > [@](#): > > Why does Amitahba get to give everybody a ‘get out of samsara free’ card? What in the nine hells kind of Buddhism places the means for getting enlightenment in somebody else’s hands? Because Amida has done so much good over his past lifetimes, he’s able to let the people who trust in him be reborn in the Pure Land, where it’s easy to attain enlightenment, unlike this world, which is so full of suffering, temptation, and immorality. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/42 "2010-05-11T08:29:05Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > What do people think about Pure Land? It’s silly. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/43 "2010-05-11T13:37:06Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > … While I remain fascinated by the wisdom in ZF, ZB I’ve been meaning to look into Taoism and see if I agree with it. You should check out [The Tao of Zen by Ray Brigg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Zen). ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/44 "2010-05-11T14:45:53Z")
Well, they did return my e-mail - I’m calling for an appointment for an orientation session later today. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/45 "2010-05-11T14:51:45Z")
Since this appears to be simple expressions of opinion without actual witnessing and no debate, we’re sending it back to **IMHO** , (who will send it back here immediately, of course, if witnessing or debate break out). [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/46 "2010-05-11T15:38:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s silly. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/47 "2010-05-11T15:57:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, seriously, what good is **that?!** Doesn’t sound like much of a way to live. It all depends on how your brain works, to be honest. Some of us are born dissatisfied and our brains conspire to torture us at every waking moment. This is the kind of person Buddha was, I fully believe, because nothing other than acute psychological anguish would really drive a person to leave everything behind and spend years trying to resolve the problem of suffering. My husband is one of the most well-adjusted people I know. He rarely gets angry and he just doesn’t get afraid of things. When he’s stressed, he just sort of rides it out without getting all caught up in the narrative of him being stressed. I find him fascinating because I am so unlike him that I can’t even imagine what it’s like to live life without some degree of fear or distress. I don’t think he’s the sort of person Zen Buddhism is supposed to help. Zen Buddhism was made for people like me, people who overthink, who judge, who self-deride, who worry and vex and get caught up in the past, and above all, who find suffering to be the single most defining experience of life. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > The basic idea is to get a Prozac disposition inside a dissociative cannabis euphoria without using exogenous chemicals. Couch an explanation for how you get there in an assortment of buzzworded pablum that boils down to something that sounds otherworldly without being so specific as to be scientifically testable, and you got yourself Zen Buddhism. Pretend any teachings (especially historic traditions) that are obvious scientific nonsense are just misunderstandings by the “unenlightened” or else not a core Truth. I’m curious, **Chief** , what you make of CBT and particularly Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. By Dr. Linehan’s own admission, the therapeutic constructs are based on Zen Buddhism. Considering I have practiced both Zen and DBT, and my husband is training for DBT as we speak, I feel qualified to confirm they are pretty damned similar. > [@](#): > > For those not familiar with DBT, it is an empirically validated, cognitive-behavioral treatment informed by the mindfulness practices of Zen Buddhism. It has four major components: weekly highly structured individual therapy (using a hierarchy of behavioral targets and diary cards); weekly group skills training that focuses on four major skill areas: mindfulness, distress tolerance, emotion regulation, and interpersonal effectiveness; as-needed coaching between sessions to assist clients with skill acquisition and generalization; and a weekly consultation meeting for the treatment team, designed to enhance learning of DBT and to provide peer support and supervision. These modes of treatment are designed to teach self-destructive and self-defeating clients to employ healthier emotional regulation and interpersonal skills and thereby achieve an improved “life worth living” (1,2). Via the consultation team, the treatment is also designed to “treat the treaters,” a phenomenon that may be unique to DBT. From [here](http://apt.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/8/1/10). CBT is a therapeutic practice well-grounded in the scientific literature. Because of it depression and anxiety are extremely treatable. DBT, which is a specific type of CBT, is the only empirically supported treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder, and the only treatment recommended by the American Psychological Association for BPD. It has been proven to be effective in over 11 randomized controlled trials not only for BPD but for sufferers of severe depression with drug/alcohol co-morbidity and a history of frequent suicide attempts. There is even mixed evidence that it works for adolescents with any recent history of suicidal ideation and has been identified as a promising treatment for Oppositional Defiant Disorder. So your claim that the tenets of Zen can’t be scientifically tested is false. They have been systematically tested through controlled experiments and they have been proven to help people with severe mental health problems. > [@](#): > > No physical problem ( **other than your own state of mind** ) actually solved; no physical suffering actually alleviated. Emphasis mine. Yes, exactly. You must be one of those weird mentally healthy types if you find that distinction significant. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/48 "2010-05-11T16:03:24Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > (If that was addressed to the OP and not to me, then the following should be ignored…) > > Avoiding overintellectualization is fine. How about avoiding overmeditation? > > And, if that’s fine, how about avoiding meditation? > > (What’s the difference between meditating and not meditating, anyway?) It was and I am. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/49 "2010-05-11T16:11:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, seriously, what good is **that?!** Doesn’t sound like much of a way to live. It is not about the “good” of anything. It is about the being. It is not result oriented. It is “being” oriented. I once had a teacher explain that often we in the Western cultures need predicate nominatives in our lives to exist. In the East, things can just “be” and it suffices. I know it seems obtuse, but it works. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/50 "2010-05-11T17:40:07Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > Far from buzzworded otherworldly pablum, Zen Buddhism could be described as simply as, “When you’re eating a tangerine, just eat the damn tangerine - don’t worry about the mortgage payment, fantasize about your next vacation, or plan your grocery list.” QFT. **Unauthorized Cinnamon** , you are nailing it in this thread in post after post. Zen, and particularly the notion of observed impermanence, has helped me immensely in my personal life. It has taught me to experience the world in a more peaceful and realistic way. I like it a lot. I get that it’s not for everyone, but it’s subjective value in my experience has been immeasurable. [QUOTE=Sage Rat] Oh yes, certainly. But at the same time, rational thought can do pain management and stuff as well. From knowing that people can control their body, to some extent, consciously and from knowing that things like pain are just signals, you can practice high-level control of your body and practice ignoring pain. But you don’t really need to subscribe to a school of philosophy to accomplish that, you just need to know that it’s possible, and work at it. [/QUOTE] I think there may be a misunderstanding here. The goal of Zen is not to stop thinking rationally. Rational thought is pretty well-recognized in Buddhism as a practical necessity. The Dalai Lama himself said that if science were to disprove Buddhism, he would go with science (he’s a Tibetan Buddhist, not Zen, but still.) The historical Buddha himself is famously quoted as having said “Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” This was not a dogmatic man. When we meditate, the goal is not to stop thinking. The goal is not to have certain kinds of thoughts. The goal is to pay attention. Even if your experience of sitting on that cushion is, ‘‘Shit, this sucks. I have so much to do. This is a complete waste of time,’’ well, that’s your experience. On top of that, saying, ‘‘Oh, I’m such a horrible Buddhist for having thoughts. Bad, bad thoughts’’ is really not going to help. The premise of Zen is that there is something valuable to be gained from attending to the present moment without judgment, no matter how unpleasant or thought-filled that moment may be. The reason \*shikantanza \*means ‘‘just sitting’’ is because it’s literally that. There is no goal other than awareness. The best real-world comparison I could make is vigorous exercise. When you exercise, if you are anything like me, all you are is a physical being, all that exists is that moment. It goes beyond pleasant and unpleasant, it just is. You, the road, your feet on the pavement, the sound of your own breath. Racers call it the ‘‘runner’s high’’ for a reason – there’s something valuable there. To answer **Frylock** ’s question about meditation, I believe that the difference between meditating and not meditating is, ideally, nothing. The purpose of meditation is to achieve that same sense of awareness, compassion, and nonjudgment in every day life. One reason breathing is often so heavily emphasized in Buddhist meditation is that no matter where you go, whether you’re delivering a speech or stuck in traffic or having sex or whatever, you’ve got your breath. It’s a handy cue for times you get lost. I fully admit a lot of older texts on Zen Buddhism, such as _Moon in a Dewdrop_ by Zen Master Dogen, are really freaking obscure. I studied it in an [English translated] Japanese literature class and remember thinking it seemed rather deliberately obtuse. I believe this is partly a cultural thing and partly the fact that you can read about Zen for ten years trying to understand it or you can spend five minutes meditating and understand it immediately. Sort of how you can only learn a foreign language through total immersion, I don’t think this is a subject that lends itself well to pontification. I’m happy to pontificate and pontificate on the pontification of others, of course. I’m just saying. Oh, and for those who would like to read a bit about this in a very no-nonsense way, I strongly recommend the first understandable book on Zen that I ever read, _Being Zen_ by Ezra Bayda. He has a beautiful sequel as well entitled _At Home in the Muddy Water_. Very straightforward, not confusing, not remotely woo-woo, and arguably the most important book on Buddhism I ever read (after _No Death, No Fear_, which is also excellent.) ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/51 "2010-05-11T17:49:28Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I call BS on this. It’s a direct quote from someone who studied Zen under Aiunken Hugo Makibi Enomiya-Lassalle and Yamada Koun Zenshin. (But I could have submitted it in a way that didn’t sound like a smart-assy threadcrap.) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/52 "2010-05-11T18:28:33Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > It’s a direct quote from someone who studied Zen under Aiunken Hugo Makibi Enomiya-Lassalle and Yamada Koun Zenshin. > > (But I could have submitted it in a way that didn’t sound like a smart-assy threadcrap.) It’s not BS. All the dude’s saying is that since Zen is by definition about directly experiencing the present moment, trying to explain it is kind of pointless. The only way to really ‘‘get’’ Zen is to do it. I read a lot of books trying to understand. Once I actually sat down to meditate, I got it. I got it immediately. The books and conversations I think can be helpful for deepening practice, but they aren’t a substitute for practice. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/53 "2010-05-11T20:23:37Z")
Thanks for the compliment, **olivesmarch4th**! Here is [Sam Harris](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KG5s_-Khvg&feature=player_embedded#!), notorious atheist, describing just what you are saying about needing to experience meditation first-hand, as well as the usefulness of this experience to decrease human suffering. (Relevant section starts at 23:23.) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/54 "2010-05-11T21:27:54Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > Thanks for the compliment, **olivesmarch4th**! > > Here is [Sam Harris](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KG5s_-Khvg&feature=player_embedded#!), notorious atheist, describing just what you are saying about needing to experience meditation first-hand, as well as the usefulness of this experience to decrease human suffering. (Relevant section starts at 23:23.) Wow, I just watched all forty minutes of that, and it was pretty powerful. I’ve never seen anyone speak out publically on atheism before; it was kind of jarring. I kept wanting to scan the background for snipers. I love that he was willing to push the envelope with his audience, and I love that this pushing involved being rational about the psychological significance of human religious experience to individual lives. Some of the points he raised could be a whole 'nother thread. (I’d have to nitpick with him on his racism analogy though. There are indeed people who feel it necessary to identify as anti-racist, and I am one of them. We even have clubs, such as the Philadelphia-based Whites In Anti-Racist Solidarity (WIARS). But I digress.) ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/55 "2010-05-12T01:17:16Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > So your claim that the tenets of Zen can’t be scientifically tested is false. They have been systematically tested through controlled experiments and they have been proven to help people with severe mental health problems. I do not claim Zen Buddhism is ineffective in assisting purely mental problems. I think it is. I also hold that many physical problems are secondary to crappy mental problems, and here too, I hold Zen Buddhism to be an effective approach. I was referrring to the general philosophy of “why” it works, the discussion of which would rapidly degenerate to arguments over what it is, exactly. The general notion of discovering some sort of deep inner self, for example; nonsensical statements like seeing one’s own nature as a mechanism to see a Buddha. BS and meaningless, untestable assertions like that. I also have a general criticism of elminating suffering by simply changing one’s mind about how to look at suffering rather than actually fixing the underlying problem. See my pinworms example in another Buddha thread… Overall a little meditation and clearing of the mind is a good thing. Better than Prozac, even. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/56 "2010-05-12T02:07:30Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > Well, for instance, I was late for the dentist. I felt incredibly stressed and keyed up, and generally miserable as I raced there in my car. I had been practicing mindfulness for a few weeks, so I was able to tune into the barely conscious narrative running through my brain. > > I realized that I was thinking I \*should \*be on time. Essentially my mind was having the irrational thought that I should somehow change things so that I was not late, and was sending panicky signals to my sympathetic nervous system, triggering the fight-or-flight reaction. Before my class, I wouldn’t have had the focus and the distance to look at these thoughts and my reactivity to them in an objective manner. I would have simply gone with the reaction, been stressed and miserable, and later probably felt like I needed a drink or dessert to soothe myself. > > As it was, once I recognized the thoughts, it was quite easy to dismiss them in favor of reality - I was late. There was no traveling back in time to change it. The best I could do was avoid further delay, which I was doing. My stress response stopped and I felt much better. But, you can get exactly the same result from [Ratio-Emotive Therapy.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_emotive_behavior_therapy) Which is **not** another name for Zen Buddhism. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/57 "2010-05-12T03:28:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, you can get exactly the same result from [Ratio-Emotive Therapy.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_emotive_behavior_therapy) Which is **not** another name for Zen Buddhism. I’m familiar with RET (Ellis’ brand anyway) and I think they have some similar constructs. Obviously I am not going to claim they are the exact same thing, but I think they dovetail nicely together. I love Ellis. I love CBT. I love Buddhism. There’s lots of room for lots of different ways to look at the problem of suffering. In my life, sometimes it makes more sense to apply CBT, other times it makes more sense to apply Buddhism, and other times I just need to get back to my existentialist roots. I realize some people need one guiding paradigm to provide all the answers to their burning questions, but I don’t. I’m interested in acquiring as many tools as possible for dealing practically with the problems I face in daily life. It just so happens that Buddhism has been a really consistent and effective one. [QUOTE=Chief Pedant] I also have a general criticism of elminating suffering by simply changing one’s mind about how to look at suffering rather than actually fixing the underlying problem. See my pinworms example in another Buddha thread… [/QUOTE] So what you want is a world without any pain in it. Fantastic, me too. I just don’t think it’s a rational goal. By all means, let’s pop our meds, become better scientists, devote our lives to reducing suffering in the world, and floss our teeth twice a day. But the reality is we can’t escape pain and decay. It is a fundamental part of the human condition. I find meaning in trying to end suffering–for real end suffering. But the question for me is, how do we choose to deal with the inevitability of pain? I actually ran into some trouble with this in a social theory course I took, because I tend to agree with the radical law professor Derrick Bell that racism (and more generally, oppression) is a permanent part of American society. When I spoke up in class and said that no matter how hard we fight we are never going to eliminate oppression and marginalization, my classmates seemed uncomfortable with this idea. They heard me saying our efforts as social workers would be in vain and we might as well give up. But that’s not what I was trying to say. What I was trying to say is that regardless of our efforts to eliminate suffering, we can never remove pain from the human condition, therefore we must acknowledge the need for psychological if not actual liberation. To me that’s what Buddhism is about. Facing the facts of life, recognizing that it hurts because hurting is a universal part of the human condition, and figuring out how to handle that hurt with minimal damage and make the best of the good stuff. We all view pain as undesirable, but tough shit. Life hurts. You either accept it or you make things worse for yourself. I realize that’s an unsatisfying answer for a lot of people. I don’t even claim it’s completely satisfying for me. But it’s one of the best frameworks I’ve got for dealing with life’s shit. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/58 "2010-05-12T03:49:55Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > It’s a direct quote from someone who studied Zen under Aiunken Hugo Makibi Enomiya-Lassalle and Yamada Koun Zenshin. > > (But I could have submitted it in a way that didn’t sound like a smart-assy threadcrap.) I still say it’s BS. Zen is notoriously difficult to explain, and teachers often speak in deliberately obscure and oblique ways. But to say that those who know don’t say is simply wrong. There is a problem with false teachers. These people have no enlightenment but want fame, respect and followers. So they say alot. But to say that those who say don’t know is simply wrong. Heck, the Dali Lama gives speaking engagements all over the world. Are you saying that since he says a lot, he doesn’t know? In other news, today I was loaned Zen Questions by Robert Allen. So far, it seems to be about Zen rather than Zen Buddhism, some of the parables are repeats from ZFZB, and it seems to be a worthwhile book. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/59 "2010-05-12T04:07:24Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Heck, the Dali Lama gives speaking engagements all over the world. Are you saying that since he says a lot, he doesn’t know? He’s not a Zen Buddhist. But that being said, “Those who know, don’t say and those who say, don’t know” isn’t Buddhist teaching. It’s Taoist, from the Tao te Ching. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/60 "2010-05-12T04:10:15Z")
D’oh! I stand by the rest of my post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833.md?page=4)