# So tell me a bit about Zen Buddhism **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833 "2010-05-09T20:13:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/61 "2010-05-12T04:24:14Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He’s not a Zen Buddhist. > > But that being said, “Those who know, don’t say and those who say, don’t know” isn’t Buddhist teaching. It’s Taoist, from the Tao te Ching. Isn’t Zen a synthesis of Buddhism and Taoism? ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/62 "2010-05-12T06:15:49Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Zen is notoriously difficult to explain, and teachers often speak in deliberately obscure and oblique ways. But to say that those who know don’t say is simply wrong. Oh. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/63 "2010-05-12T06:57:09Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I still say it’s BS. > > Zen is notoriously difficult to explain, and teachers often speak in deliberately obscure and oblique ways. But to say that those who know don’t say is simply wrong. > > There is a problem with false teachers. These people have no enlightenment but want fame, respect and followers. So they say alot. But to say that those who say don’t know is simply wrong. > > Heck, the Dali Lama gives speaking engagements all over the world. Are you saying that since he says a lot, he doesn’t know? > > In other news, today I was loaned Zen Questions by Robert Allen. So far, it seems to be about Zen rather than Zen Buddhism, some of the parables are repeats from ZFZB, and it seems to be a worthwhile book. So Lao-Tzu was a “false teacher who had no enlightenment but wanted fame, respect, and followers.”? I wonder how much else of what he said was “bullshit”? Seriously- lighten up. “Those who say…” isn’t meant to be a hostile challenge or slapdown. For example, see Post #52 for a more gentle interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/64 "2010-05-12T08:28:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. I just love the way that any Christianity thread will get moved from IMHO to GD because it degenerates into witnessing, while any Buddhism thread will move the other way. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/65 "2010-05-12T08:38:33Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Well, they did return my e-mail - I’m calling for an appointment for an orientation session later today. That’s great Zsofia, I’m glad they got back to you. Good luck with the orientation. I hope you find it interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/66 "2010-05-12T14:12:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Isn’t Zen a synthesis of Buddhism and Taoism? Not really. It probably adopted some Taoist ideas, but all Buddhism in China did that. It was supposedly introduced to China by an Indian monk called Bodhidharma, but in its origins, it’s a synthesis of various Buddhist schools. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/67 "2010-05-12T14:21:17Z")
I too am looking forward to a report on your experience, **Zsofia**! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/68 "2010-05-12T14:23:49Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > So Lao-Tzu was a “false teacher who had no enlightenment but wanted fame, respect, and followers.”? > > I wonder how much else of what he said was “bullshit”? “The Tao is in dung.” – Chuang Tzu ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/69 "2010-05-12T14:57:13Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I haven’t meditated in a long time (hence the caveat). When I did, I practiced _shikanataza_ meditation, which means ‘‘just sitting.’’ Some people do lovingkindness or breathing meditation, but _shikantaza_ really just means you sit your ass down for no specific purpose whatsoever and pay attention to what comes up. I’ve always employed either shikanataza or visualization exercise\* methods while meditating, and the whole point of meditation for me is to have time to practice just being in the moment so that it becomes more effortless. (\*This is more of an “inner travel experience” thing or a pre-game/challenge exercise; the point is to either work through a concept or to visualize success as a preemptive measure before a major challenge/event. It’s more of a “get the nervous jitters out” thing than anything else.) > [@kelly5078](#): > > We in the west are, to a large extent, reinventing Buddhism to suit ourselves. This is a perfectly acceptable and respectable thing: all existing Buddhism is a reinvention. This is a good philosophy to have in general-- any practice of Buddhism, meditation, or philosophical leanings have to be adapted to your needs in order to be effective. The same goes for physical activities (sports, yoga, martial arts, etc.): if you cannot comfortably perform a move as directed, you are not likely to master it, and thus adapting the movement to suit your physical needs will help you achieve mastery of the concept behind the movement. In my limited experience with yoga and martial arts, there has been a great emphasis on employing your strengths and adaptation to your own needs-- some poses/moves may have to be modified until your body is capable of achieving the “goal” pose/move. It may never be mastered as the original move, though, as sometimes the limitation is a permanent physical issue. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > The general philosophy pretty much just keeps things in perspective, keeps things simple, and keeps things focused. For people like me with a wandering, restless mind, having a philosophy that boils down to “keep things simple and in perspective” is important. It makes life less complicated, especially when things get hectic. > [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > The premise of Zen is that there is something valuable to be gained from attending to the present moment without judgment, no matter how unpleasant or thought-filled that moment may be. The reason \*shikantanza \*means ‘‘just sitting’’ is because it’s literally that. There is no goal other than awareness. The best real-world comparison I could make is vigorous exercise. When you exercise, if you are anything like me, all you are is a physical being, all that exists is that moment. It goes beyond pleasant and unpleasant, it just is. You, the road, your feet on the pavement, the sound of your own breath. Racers call it the ‘‘runner’s high’’ for a reason – there’s something valuable there. I am not a Buddhist, but I have engaged in activities that are traditionally steeped in Zen philosophy as part of the training, and it has helped me in ways similar to what you are seeking out of Zen Buddhist meditation. All of the above quotes really explain the major aspect of what one wants to get out of Zen style meditation-- it’s about being in the moment and experiencing that moment for itself. The goal [for me at least] is to make these moments easier to get to so that you can experience them in everyday moments and put forth a more objective viewpoint when things get stressful and complicated. I employ this sort of focus when doing exercise, as it makes the moves more accurate, fluid and enjoyable than when I’ve got other things on my mind-- getting to the point where exercise is escapism from the other things you have to do is an important part of enjoying exercise, and it can become a very zen experience. Like any other philosophical/religious movement, Zen is what you make of it. You can dig deep or you can not dig deep; it’s up to you to decide what is right for you. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/70 "2010-05-12T14:58:46Z")
I’m still hung up on the “one hand clapping” koan thing. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/71 "2010-05-12T15:20:20Z")
> [@Chief Pedant](#): > > I also have a general criticism of elminating suffering by simply changing one’s mind about how to look at suffering rather than actually fixing the underlying problem. See my pinworms example in another Buddha thread… I don’t think pinworms are exactly the best example to prove your point. The traditional Buddhist response to a medical problem is to take medicine to deal with it. Traditionally Buddhism has recognized the importance of the “Four Requisites”: Food, Clothing, Shelter, and Medicine as being an essential prerequisite to following the Noble Eightfold Path. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/72 "2010-05-12T20:09:53Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I’m still hung up on the “one hand clapping” koan thing. The trick is to punch yourself in the face. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/73 "2010-05-13T16:54:36Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > So Lao-Tzu was a “false teacher who had no enlightenment but wanted fame, respect, and followers.”? I never said that and I’ll thank you not to put words in my mouth. As our Unca Cecil has taught us, even the greatest teachers can be wrong now and then. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/74 "2010-05-13T18:19:31Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I never said that and I’ll thank you not to put words in my mouth. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/75 "2010-05-13T20:01:02Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I never said that and I’ll thank you not to put words in my mouth. Please disregard my first reply. (“You’re welcome.”) It just dawned on me that I misinterpreted your “false teachers” comment. Given the context, I thought you were _attributing_ “Those who say…” to such people; After re-reading your statement, I realize that’s not at all what you were saying. So I did put words in your mouth, and sincerely apologize. By the way and for what it’s worth, the single greatest lesson I’ve learned from life is neatly summed up in my favorite “Words Of Wisdom” quote: “Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful stroke of luck.” spoken by The Dalai Lama. > [@DocCathode](#): > > As our Unca Cecil has taught us, even the greatest teachers can be wrong now and then. Yes, but he might have been wrong about that.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/76 "2010-05-14T22:57:17Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I got a copy of Zen Flesh, Zen Bones a few years ago. I’ve read it I know not how many times. I’ve meditated on some of its koans. But while watching the Richard Gere special on Buddha, I came to a very strong conclusion. > > I think he was wrong. > > The nature of existence is NOT suffering. Lao Tsu looked at life and said it was sweet. If we accept that both these men were wise, we can come to only one conclusion. _The nature of existence is up for debate_. If Buddha’s first premise was wrong (the nature of existence is suffering), then his conclusions are almost certainly wrong. I think the problem here is one of translation. The oldest recorded Buddhist writings are written in Pali, and the word that he uses is _Dukkha_, which has a must vaster scope than the English term “suffering.” It’d be more accurate to translate it as “unsatisfactoriness.” Also, the Buddha didn’t say that life is only _Dukkha_ or even primarily _Dukkha_, just that it exists and should be recognized and understood. I cringe when I hear the First Noble Truth translated as “Life as suffering” because it’s virtually guaranteed to convey the wrong impression to those unfamiliar with Buddhism. I prefer to state it as “Unsatisfactoriness exists in life.” > [@](#): > > I look in my own life and find that while there is suffering and dissatisfaction, there is also sweetness, laughter and joy. Why give up who I am? I am unique, maybe even special. To quote a poem from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones > > “Inch foot time gem > This moment will not come again > Each moment is a precious gem” > > Isn’t that also true of me? And of each of you? How then is self an illusion? In order to be reborn (in any sense) I have to exist first. If _I_ exist, how am I an illusion? The doctrine of [anatta](http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel202.html#physical) or “not self” is pretty difficult to convey in a single reasonable sized post, but I’ll do my best. What we think of as our self is not a static thing, it’s a constantly changing _process_ consisting of form (our physical body), feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness. Buddhists call these the Five Aggregates, or Skandhas. To the extent that we cling to the aggregates, we cause ourselves suffering. For example, if we’re attached to being young and beautiful we’ll be pretty miserable as the passage of time ages the body. Or if we identify our job as being who we are, we’ll suffer a great deal if we lose the job. Not self doesn’t mean that self is non-existent, it’s more like a tool used to avoid clinging to things. I’m reminded of what Tyler Durden said in Fight Club: “You are not your job, or how much money you have in the bank!” ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/77 "2010-05-15T04:46:20Z")
I can tell you more than just a bit about it; I can tell you _every single thing_ there is to know about Zen. A koan: **Everything anyone can know about Zen is bullshit. Zen is not bullshit.** ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/78 "2010-05-15T06:36:04Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I can tell you more than just a bit about it; I can tell you _every single thing_ there is to know about Zen. A koan: > **Everything anyone can know about Zen is bullshit. Zen is not bullshit.** How can I trust you that Zen is not bullshit, when all I see are words? ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/79 "2010-05-15T13:40:13Z")
Okay, I went to my orientation yesterday, which I thought was quite good. Lot of talking, went through the basics of sitting and what to expect from services, etc. It’s quietly hilarious, though - you think you’re such an educated person and that you’ve grown out of your parents’ prejudices and that the South is not a cultural backwater and you’re living proof, and then you go downstairs to the daylight basement of this nice suburban house and there smack in the middle of the floor there’s a HEATHEN IDOL and your brain just _cannot_ get over it. Seriously, the front of your brain is respectfully learning how to do all this stuff and the back of your brain which is still a good Presbyterian brain stem is all “You’re _kidding_, right? Look at that! It’s… it’s tacky, is what it is! Good god, it’s almost Catholic!” Which is definitely not what I thought I’d have trouble with. You also don’t realize what a cultural gift you receive by being brought up in a specific religion - you acquire without really noticing an encyclopedic knowledge of its scriptures, etiquette, behavior, theology, and a billion other things you don’t even realize that you use. When you try to set foot in a completely different religion that originates on the other side of the world you’re shocked at how alien it is and how much you feel at sea. It’s going to be very hard for me to decide to go to a service, because essentially it’s signing up for a couple hours of being a bumbling moron. I had a very hard time with the sitting, not because of the meditation itself but physically - if I sit cross legged on a cushion, my back screams because my overall shitty daily posture has made it weak and feeble. On a seiza bench, my feet fall asleep and my ankles howl. It’s going to take quite a bit of practice to be able to do either for 35 or 45 minutes, which is what you have to be able to do for the services. At any rate, I’m planning on going forward with it. (And of course if I weren’t such a “do it tomorrow” dilettante, I’d have sat this morning.) ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833/80 "2010-05-17T11:21:48Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > You should check out [The Tao of Zen by Ray Brigg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Zen). > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Isn’t Zen a synthesis of Buddhism and Taoism? What Mr. Brigg has to say on the subject is that when Zen Buddhism is stripped of it’s religious trappings, you find that Zen is pretty much Tao Quietism. Carry on **olivesmarch4th** , nice work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-a-bit-about-zen-buddhism/538833.md?page=5)