# So tell me about Mithril **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 16, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809 "2005-03-16T14:34:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/21 "2005-03-17T01:28:28Z")
Welcome **FotB**! Great dopername. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/22 "2005-03-17T01:42:45Z")
\ They found mithril Under Moria’s hill Zirak-zigil In Khazad-dum Gandalf lay still On Moria’s hill And lingered until He defied the tomb Old Durin the Deathless delved and found wond’rous things Gave some to Eregion’s Elves Who fashioned some rings Through trolls’ assaults Young Frodo lives still Cause he had mithril Under Moria’s hill ---
**Author:** ![FellowshipoftheBling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@FellowshipoftheBling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FellowshipoftheBling)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/23 "2005-03-17T01:46:54Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > Welcome **FotB**! Great dopername. Thank you! glad to see there are so many Tolkien fans here 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/24 "2005-03-17T01:56:15Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > One point in favor of it’s being used generally is that it’s a common reference point. If someone in a fantasy book introduces a mithril short-sword, a lot of fantasy fans will know what to expect just based on that. If the author goes and makes up his own metal (Flobotnam-ite?) he has to take the time to explain what its properties are and so on. Actually, this is **exactly** what’s wrong with it. An author should be creative enough to develop his or her own concepts, items and world in such a way that it is _conveyed_ to the reader without the cheapening shortcut of using someone else’s creation. Not 10 minutes though would give a decent author some way to imply that a metal is A) very hard B) very shiny C) very valuable And voila! a mithril substitute that the author actually created! Woot! The whole ‘fantasy fans will know what to expect’ takes away from the book and story, for all of me. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/25 "2005-03-17T02:18:03Z")
On the subject of mithril (or other variant spellings) in non-Tolkien sources, I’d make a distinction between novels that crib the idea from Tolkien, and video or role-playing games that do so. Dungeons and Dragons, for example, was originally created as a home-brew rule set for wargaming in the Middle Earth setting. So, yeah, it has mithril in it, and ents, and balrogs, and hobbits, because the purpose of the game, as originally conceived, was not world building. The point of a lot of role-playing and video games isn’t, “Here are original characters doing something you’ve never seen before in a unique setting,” it’s “Here’re characters and settings with which you are intimatly familiar: it’s up to you to decide what to do in them.” That’s precisely the attraction of your average generic fantasy RPG/video game. ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/26 "2005-03-17T02:25:20Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Just whose intellectual property do you refer to? The varied legends of “elves” had been public domain for centuries. So had magic rings. But the Eldar, as the first-born children of Iluvatar, were definitely creations of JRRT. As was the One Ring, forged by the Maiar Sauron to subdue the Eldar. Sure, but those are somehow different than “mithril.” Those are fleshed out characters and concepts. I could actually understand being really annoyed if someone simply swiped them lock, stock, and barrel and inserted them into their story. But mithril is a small element of Tolkien, and with no offense to the Tolkien nuts, it’s basically really hard, shiny, magic metal. I do not think borrowing that concept and not changing the name is any great theft of intellectual property than I think that Tolkien borrowing names and idea from Old World sagas is. The public domain part doesn’t really matter to me much here, but I assumed we were talking about morally correct versus legally correct (in which case legally the mere lifting of a concept like “mithril” is almost certainly legal). So my point was not so much an attack on Tolkien for lifting intellectual property (because he did, but I believe did it fairly and made his own story) as it is a questioning of someone who would literally boycott any product that dares to use so much as a word or a concept from Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/27 "2005-03-17T02:30:45Z")
I think the greatest measure of Tolkien’s success will be the degree to which, over time, people come to feel that his inventions – orcs, ents, mithril – have always been. Just as it’s a measure of Milton’s genius that so many have a hard time distinguishing the mythology of Paradise Lost from that of the Bible. It may seem strange that a writer who once taught literature should feel this way. By all accounts, I should be shaking my head in disgust at those who haven’t read Milton or the Bible sufficiently to accurately draw the line. I should be defending Tolkien’s right to his intellectual property. But in this case, that’s not how I see it. The work of a true genius takes on a life of its own. I’m not advocating that people go around publishing spurious sequels to the Ring Trilogy. But I’m happy to see Tolkien’s mythology enter the public imagination so fully. Like a word coined by a master speaker, some of Tolkien’s ideas are so right, so necessary, that we look at them and say, yes, that’s it. Why invent something exactly like mithril and call it by another name? People would only scoff at it and wonder, “Why didn’t he just call it mithril? What, does he think we’re stupid? We know what this is.” ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/28 "2005-03-17T02:34:14Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > So my point was not so much an attack on Tolkien for lifting intellectual property (because he did, but I believe did it fairly and made his own story) He did more than that. His mission was to resurrect the largely forgotten mythic history of northern Europe, rescue it from Walt Disney, imbue it with a modern Christian ethos, and make it live again. Amazingly, he succeeded. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/29 "2005-03-17T03:39:09Z")
\*And so they received the gifts from the Duke of that land, for his queen had been turned human from wolf, and his daughter freed of her sleep. For the trickster, a coin from the beast’s hoard that would always come back to him, bringing two more coins with it. For the archer, a bow made from the tusks of that very beast, and strung with spiders’ silk, woven by sprites. For the magician, a book from the Duke’s library which would teach him one new thing each day. And for the Paladin, the daughter’s hand in marriage, and a coat of mail made by dwarvish craftsmen, from a metal so light and luminous they named it for the queen of the Faeries. They called it… titanium. \* ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/30 "2005-03-17T04:15:49Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Actually, this is **exactly** what’s wrong with it. An author should be creative enough to develop his or her own concepts, items and world in such a way that it is _conveyed_ to the reader without the cheapening shortcut of using someone else’s creation. Frankly, it would be even better if he’d avoid the sword and sorcery stuff altogether, not just invent new names. I give you the definitive thread on the subject: > **[Like Fantasy Novels? A New Idea: Frodma '03](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=156119)** > > A while back some director or producer or something came up with the principles of “Dogme '95.” The idea behind Dogme '95 was that filmmakers should try to create films without using any of a standard list of filmmaking cliches, such as superficial... ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/31 "2005-03-17T13:15:35Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > They called it… titanium. When I think if mithril, I always picture titanium. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/32 "2005-03-17T13:49:31Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > \*And so they received the gifts from the Duke of that land, for his queen had been turned human from wolf, and his daughter freed of her sleep. For the trickster, a coin from the beast’s hoard that would always come back to him, bringing two more coins with it. For the archer, a bow made from the tusks of that very beast, and strung with spiders’ silk, woven by sprites. For the magician, a book from the Duke’s library which would teach him one new thing each day. And for the Paladin, the daughter’s hand in marriage, and a coat of mail made by dwarvish craftsmen, from a metal so light and luminous they named it for the queen of the Faeries. > > They called it… titanium. > \* Awesome! ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/33 "2005-03-17T14:21:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Frankly, it would be even better if he’d avoid the sword and sorcery stuff altogether, not just invent new names. > > I give you the definitive thread on the subject: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=156119](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=156119) A-f\*cking-men. I was cogitating just yesterday on the fact that the fantasy genre is still basically beholden, in pretty much it’s entirety, to Tolkein and the world and concepts he introduced. And that sucks. No disrespect to JRRT…but it’s time to move along. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/34 "2005-03-17T14:34:15Z")
Well, [Mercedes Lackey](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671721100/qid=1111070972/sr=1-80/ref=sr_1_80/002-5918928-8929611?v=glance&s=books) is perfect if you like fantasy elements, lot and lots of exposition, and an idea of elves that is not behoven to Tolkien. Or you might hate it. ---
**Author:** ![jfortun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2acd7d/32.png) [@jfortun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jfortun)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/35 "2005-03-17T15:29:22Z")
Wasn’t part of Tolkien’s goal to rebuild Anglo-Saxon mythology and add it to the voice of other world mythologies? It seems to me that the common, almost unconscious, use of terms and concepts he invented is evidence that he was successful. I enjoy a completely original work of fiction (if such a thing can be said to exist) but I also enjoy works that knowingly stand on shoulders of giants- just as Tolkien’s work was built on the mythology (however unfamiliar to most modern men) that came before it . ---
**Author:** ![jfortun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2acd7d/32.png) [@jfortun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jfortun)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/36 "2005-03-17T15:36:34Z")
I see that I have basically repeated what Sample said. Sorry for the redundancy. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/37 "2005-03-17T17:42:14Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > Well, [Mercedes Lackey](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671721100/qid=1111070972/sr=1-80/ref=sr_1_80/002-5918928-8929611?v=glance&s=books) is perfect if you like fantasy elements, lot and lots of exposition, and an idea of elves that is not behoven to Tolkien. Or you might hate it. Oooh, Lackey! My guilty pleasure! Literature from the “Beautiful, magic talking horsie will be my friennnnnnnnnnd!” school! ---
**Author:** ![trupa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@trupa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trupa)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/38 "2005-03-17T17:57:46Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > When I think if mithril, I always picture titanium. Ditto here. So, anybody with a knowledge of material science/metallurgy and who knows their Tolkien care to comment? Don’t you need an inert gas atmosphere to forge/cast Titanium? How would the dwarves have smelted & worked it. Any magic required? I worked with the stuff as an undergrad doing a research project on artificial hip implants. We had cigarette-size rods that had been knurled with a particular pattern we were doing fatigue testing on. Each specimen was like $150 or so. Now I see titanium jewelry and fountain pens being sold… ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/39 "2005-03-17T18:04:43Z")
> [@FellowshipoftheBling](#): > > Thank you! glad to see there are so many Tolkien fans here 🙂 Be sure to read [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=138905&highlight=lord+rings)…when you have time. ---
**Author:** ![NoPretentiousCodename](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/82dd89/32.png) [@NoPretentiousCodename](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoPretentiousCodename)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/40 "2005-03-17T19:15:28Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > When I think if mithril, I always picture titanium. I picture Aluminum. Except more rare than that… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809.md?page=3)