# So tell me about Mithril **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 16, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809 "2005-03-16T14:34:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/41 "2005-03-17T19:24:03Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Well, I didn’t really care whether it sounded snarky, to tell you the truth. It’s the facts as I see them. I don’t want any truck with intellectual properties that (mis)appropriate Tolkien’s exclusive inventions. Those include the Elven languages he designed, references to God as Eru, Maiar, mithril, hobbits, Tom Bombadil, calling wizards _istari_, Morgoth, Silmarils, Ents, and the geography of Middle-Earth. > > Sorry to be so dogmatic and opinionated, but IMNSHO, everything you can learn about mithril is contained within Tolkien’s writings. I agree with you on most of that, but Tolkien derived Quenya in part from Finnish (or at least archaic Finnish), as well as other languages, so I have no problem with people using “istari” for wizards, since it has a background in “real” spoken languages. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/42 "2005-03-17T20:11:45Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Just whose intellectual property do you refer to? The varied legends of “elves” had been public domain for centuries. So had magic rings. But the Eldar, as the first-born children of Iluvatar, were definitely creations of JRRT. As was the One Ring, forged by the Maiar Sauron to subdue the Eldar. > > Meanwhile, Terry Pratchett has done a nice orginal work with elves, even as he pays homage to JRRT and other classic legends. But I’d still say the idea of his elves as alien parasitic sadistic overlords with a weakness for iron is Pratchett’s “intellectual property”. > > You talk about _lifting_ ideas, read Terry Brooks’ Sword of Shannara. Or better yet, don’t. Well, If Richard Wagner had lived to read LOTR, he might have had a good case for a lawsuit… ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/43 "2005-03-17T20:17:48Z")
No, It’s Socretes, writter of “The Sword Of Gyges” who has a case. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/44 "2005-03-17T20:19:16Z")
Thats ring, and it’s Plato :smack: ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/45 "2005-03-17T20:28:40Z")
Mithril Coil (the elite belt) and Mithril Point (the elite dirk) are non-unique items in Diablo 2 and in the expansion pack. Just FYI. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/46 "2005-03-17T20:31:59Z")
I’ve always equated mithril with aluminum. Before anyone comments on the strength, pure mithril itself is not as strong as steel; it’s only particular alloys of it with that property. And although aluminum is actually very common, it’s exceedingly rare in nature in its elemental, recognizable form. Until the modern electrolytic processes for extracting it, aluminum was the most precious metal known. And aluminum is a lot more chemically interesting than titanium, consistent with all the magical or high art uses to which it’s put in Middle-Earth. Including, incidentally, the synthesis of gemstones: Corundum (the mineral name for ruby, sapphire, and emerald) is an oxide of aluminum. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/47 "2005-03-17T20:34:09Z")
> [@](#): > > and they called it … titanium Well, of course the problem with titanium armour is it’s well-known vulnerability to spells from the cold/ice realms. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/48 "2005-03-17T20:59:46Z")
(To Lute Skywalker - Thanks so much for the link to the immortal “If LOTR had been written by somebody else” thread. I’d forgotten how funny some of the entries were. !) I still think “mithril” as a term is too specific to LOTR to be used in other works without being accused of lifting someone else’s idea. Yes, Tolkien was inspired by other works and ideas himself. But there is a big difference between being inspired by Nordic/Germanic mythology and lifting anothers’ ideas whole cloth (as Terry Brooks did). That said, I still think it is cool that words such as “hobbit” and “ent” can now be found out in the general culture. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/49 "2005-03-17T21:52:09Z")
> [@Nocturne](#): > > I agree with you on most of that, but Tolkien derived Quenya in part from Finnish (or at least archaic Finnish), as well as other languages, so I have no problem with people using “istari” for wizards, since it has a background in “real” spoken languages. That would make some sense if he had taken an existing term for wizards, but he didn’t. His languages were not “derived” from existing languages - they were clearly _inspired_ by them, but the languages were created from scratch. Tolkien’s linguistic work was incredibly sophisticated - he created several different languages, and he examined the way language changes in the real world to mutate them, evolving new ones from old ones. Tolkien put vast amounts of time and energy into developing his languages, and if an author was really so bereft of creativity as to steal Tolkien’s concepts without even bothering to change their names, I would be simply disgusted. Sad that the whole swords-and-sorcery genre generally is so formulaic and lacking in ideas; that’s why I gave up on it when I was twelve or so. You can only read one book with different names a certain number of times before you realize that it’s worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/50 "2005-03-18T01:53:42Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > Well, If Richard Wagner had lived to read LOTR, he might have had a good case for a lawsuit… How so? The legend of Sigurd Ring pre-dated Wagner by over 1000 years, and frankly, there’s not a lot of direct overlap between Wagner’s “Der Ring Des Nibelungen” and JRRT. Common inspiration and sources, yes. But beyond that? I don’t think so. Besides, JRRT clearly drew on many more mythos than Wagner ever dreamt of. ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/51 "2005-03-18T09:05:23Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > That would make some sense if he had taken an existing term for wizards, but he didn’t. His languages were not “derived” from existing languages - they were clearly _inspired_ by them, but the languages were created from scratch. Tolkien’s linguistic work was incredibly sophisticated - he created several different languages, and he examined the way language changes in the real world to mutate them, evolving new ones from old ones. Tolkien put vast amounts of time and energy into developing his languages, and if an author was really so bereft of creativity as to steal Tolkien’s concepts without even bothering to change their names, I would be simply disgusted. Sad that the whole swords-and-sorcery genre generally is so formulaic and lacking in ideas; that’s why I gave up on it when I was twelve or so. You can only read one book with different names a certain number of times before you realize that it’s worthless. I see your point, but he did lift a good deal of words and names **directly** from other languages, and other works (though the copyright issue wouldn’t be applicable with the Eddas!). In fact, I remember one of the names from the Horsemen of Rhovanion (the ancestors of the Rohirrim) being the name of a (minor) historical Gothic figure…though I’m going to have to check on that. Furthermore, there were several names that seem to have been “borrowed” from _Beowulf_, mostly again referring to Rohirrim, which makes sense as they seem to emulate a lot of the concepts of a Gothic culture. So while I agree that other people using specific concepts from Tolkien usually tends to water-down Tolkien, my jury is still out on borrowing a few terms from him, especially since he borrowed a lot of terms and concepts from other people. It’s not a bad thing, and it’s especially done within the fantasy genre. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/52 "2005-03-18T12:52:56Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > You talk about _lifting_ ideas, read Terry Brooks’ Sword of Shannara. Or better yet, don’t. Three cheers and a tiger for that word “don’t”. The one thing Terry Brooks should have lifted, but didn’t, was the notion of spending many, many years dreaming up the backdrop to your story before you actually write the story. SoS is simply horrible, and that’s before you get to Alannon’s duel over a fiery chasm. :smack: :rolleyes: :wally ---
**Author:** ![Galanthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Galanthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galanthus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/53 "2005-03-18T13:10:01Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Three cheers and a tiger for that word “don’t”. The one thing Terry Brooks should have lifted, but didn’t, was the notion of spending many, many years dreaming up the backdrop to your story before you actually write the story. SoS is simply horrible, and that’s before you get to Alannon’s duel over a fiery chasm. :smack: :rolleyes: :wally Talking of the “Sword of Shannara” read this, possibly the funniest review ever written. Shame they had to explain the joke at the beginning for those too dumb to think for themselves. [http://www.sf-fandom.com/xoa/white\_council/archive\_20/4148.htm](http://www.sf-fandom.com/xoa/white_council/archive_20/4148.htm) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/54 "2005-03-18T13:21:04Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > You talk about lifting ideas, read Terry Brooks’ Sword of Shannara. Or better yet, don’t. > [@Malacandra](#): > > Three cheers and a tiger for that word “don’t”. The one thing Terry Brooks should have lifted, but didn’t, was the notion of spending many, many years dreaming up the backdrop to your story before you actually write the story. SoS is simply horrible, and that’s before you get to Alannon’s duel over a fiery chasm. :smack: :rolleyes: :wally This is not the Pit, so I can’t give my full opinion of Terry Brookes :wally . (Is ‘talentless plagiarist’ acceptable here?) When I ‘read’ the ‘book’ mentioned above, I gave up counting the straight lifts from the Lord of the Rings when I reached about 150. (As for the incident above, do you know how the mysterious wizard figure survives falling into the chasm? After travelling some distance, he grabs hold of a tree branch. What an incredible concept, fully representative of the ‘incredible imagination’ displayed by the ‘author’.) I seriously considered writing to the publishers: Dear \*\*\*, I have just read ‘the Lord of the Rings ’ by JRR Tolkien. It is clear that he has stolen the plot, characters, incidents and descriptions from your author T. Brookes’ work ‘Sword of Shannara’. As it happens Tolkien’s book is immeasurably superior in every department. Nevertheless such obvious plagiarism is an offence to decent writers everywhere, and I trust you will publicise this situation immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/55 "2005-03-18T13:44:40Z")
> [@Nocturne](#): > > So while I agree that other people using specific concepts from Tolkien usually tends to water-down Tolkien, my jury is still out on borrowing a few terms from him, especially since he borrowed a lot of terms and concepts from other people. It’s not a bad thing, and it’s especially done within the fantasy genre. No, that’s not quite where I (at least) was coming from. By borrowing words and concepts from Tolkein writers are watering down _their own work_. Much better for the self, talent and the reader if a writer applies himself a bit more and invents everything out of whole cloth. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/56 "2005-03-18T15:14:31Z")
Perhaps this is why so many serious literary types just don’t take the fantasy genre seriously - because so much of it is just recycled ideas. What is especially irritating to me is that many fail to distinguish the originals (such as Tolkien) from the hopeless money grubbing copycats (Brooks). There really is a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/57 "2005-03-18T15:22:48Z")
And I’ll tell you another thing: it annoys the tits off me (\*) that I’ve written a perfectly good and non-plagiaristic fantasy novel of my own, and I’ve yet to get the (checks forum) durn thing printed, while TB is on his how-manyth cheap knock-off? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/58 "2005-03-18T15:23:56Z")
(\*) Which is going some, given that **Mal** is a dude, I meant to say. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/59 "2005-03-18T18:45:39Z")
I dig Tolkien. He built a lot of his own stuff from scratch, and he attached it to some familiar themes and archetypes from what we would tend to refer to as “folklore.” Sorry, but Tolkien’s own inventions are not “folklore.” Perhaps a discussion on what it needs to elevate something to folkloric status is in order. Anyone care to start it? Or even suggest where such a discussion should take place? ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Norder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@Dan\_Norder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Norder)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809/60 "2005-03-18T20:04:36Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Sorry, but Tolkien’s own inventions are not “folklore.” Perhaps a discussion on what it needs to elevate something to folkloric status is in order. I’m not sure how much of a discussion could even be had. Intentionally created fiction can never be myth or legend (except in those cases where people who don’t know it’s not fiction hear about it and believe in it) and folklore is similar, though it can have fictional elements, just not ones that are spread by a large book of unchanging content, they’d have to be oral and go through generations. But then lots of people use really sloppy definitions for words they don’t understand. They’re just wrong, there’s no discussion to be had. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-about-mithril/294809.md?page=4)