# So tell me, what defines a True Atheist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222 "2017-03-02T18:07:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/181 "2017-03-07T18:37:03Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > To try to apply it, and all it’s poisonous baggage, to atheists, when in fact the true believer paradigm simply does not apply to atheists. And, I never brought up True either, except when a poster would rather fight the hypothetical than participate. In any case, my _opinion_, one shared by many, is that “Hard” Atheism, a conviction that no Gods possibly can or do exist- is indeed a “belief” a from of “faith” and almost a religion. ---
**Author:** ![sear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sear)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/182 "2017-03-07T18:37:14Z")
> [@](#): > > “Theists sometimes make the point that since atheists cannot ever be 100% sure that god(s) do not exist, atheism is just a different kind of faith.” H #172 I consider that prejudicial. It accepts / presumes or implies that religion is the one binary game to beat. - But what about the notion that jack-o’-lanterns and basketballs fart maraschino cherries? - Or that every man named Mildred drives a '57 El Camino with an 8 Track? - Or clouds in the sky are Vlad Putin’s conspiracy to prevent us from seeing his evil-doers plotting to take over our country and mess up our stuff? There are trillions of these. > [@](#): > > “There are 600 distinct religious expressions in the city of Los Angeles alone.” > L.A. Times Religion writer Larry Stammer on PBS NewsHour Dec ‘01 And many hundreds of religious versions. There’s no compulsion to prove a negative, or disprove myths perpetuated for millennia, but never supported by logical argument or material evidence. And candidly, if god wishes to punish me with eternal torment for rational contemplation and logical conclusion, then I wouldn’t want the curse of having to waste the rest of eternity in his neighborhood anyway. > [@](#): > > “Born again types think I’m going to Hell. I think Hell is spending eternity with someone like them. Guess that means we’re going to the same place.” shiftless2 ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/183 "2017-03-07T18:37:54Z")
I vow today to try to Athe harder and better. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/184 "2017-03-07T18:39:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nor have I tried to force it into “true vs not true”. We are discussing the various types and flavors of Atheism, and it is clear that Atheists do not agree. The discussion and debate has been edifying. > > Yes, one poster likes the difference between “Hard” and “Soft” atheism, and that does make more sense that “True”, I agree. > > Some would rather fight the hypothetical than participate in the discussion. You are missing the point. I was replying to one specific post, about why the question is invalid. You responded by simple lining to an analogous thread. My point and only my point was: 1. Why the criticism of true vs not can be seen as well poising 2. How your response reinforced the idea that you were doing this thread as a gotcha. that’s it. You can respond to that or not at all, but I’m going to chance the topic around as you respond to things I’m not arguing. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/185 "2017-03-07T18:42:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And, I never brought up True either, except when a poster would rather fight the hypothetical than participate. > > In any case, my _opinion_, one shared by many, is that “Hard” Atheism, a conviction that no Gods possibly can or do exist- is indeed a “belief” a from of “faith” and almost a religion. The part your missing is this: “Hard” Atheism, is a conviction that no Gods possibly can or do exist _until proven otherwise_. Based on the existing information, I am 100% positive gods do not exist. I am happy to change this belief shoudl evidence support a change. That is belief but not faith. Faith is not evidence-based. A belief can be evidenced-based and be changed with new evidence. _Belief_ does not always equal _faith_. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/186 "2017-03-07T18:45:40Z")
My Atheist Belief: I believe that nothing approaching verifiable evidence has been presented so far that would lead me to accept the existence of any god. If that’s too long a statement, just end the last sentence at “presented”. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/187 "2017-03-07T18:52:25Z")
As many have stated already, an atheist (true or otherwise) is simply one who does not believe in god(s). Atheism is a religion or a belief in exactly the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby, and bald is a hairstyle. (not claiming originality there) Yet this proves incomprehensible to many believers…the ones I encountered have been Christian, but that is likely just an artifact of where I live my life. “I just don’t understand how you can not believe in God!” they will say. I put it to them in this way. (not original to me) I believe in Jehovah/Yahweh/Elohim/Capital G-God in exactly the same way that you believe in Zeus, Poseidon, Vishnu, and Pele the Polynesian god of vulcanism. We are both atheists when it comes to all those gods, and I simply believe in one less god than you do. This is usually met with the reply that all those are false gods, and or myths, and there is only one true God. Then I point out that this is circular reasoning because the terms “myth” and “false god” are simply labels applied to gods in which someone doesn’t believe. Again, I have a list of such one item longer than theirs. I am also happy to point them to bible passages in which God refers to other gods with nary a hint that these might not actually exist. (Starting with the second commandment) At which point they often go to the “One God with many names” approach. This can of course be addressed by the many contradictory descriptions of the nature of various gods…and given the dichotomy between the God of the old testament, and that of the new, it is far easier to imagine many gods using one name than the converse. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/188 "2017-03-07T18:52:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And, I never brought up True either, except when a poster would rather fight the hypothetical than participate. > > In any case, my _opinion_, one shared by many, is that “Hard” Atheism, a conviction that no Gods possibly can or do exist- is indeed a “belief” a from of “faith” and almost a religion. If you just wanted to talk about the rare “hard atheism” instead of the garden-variety atheism, you should have just said so. You wouldn’t have too many posters respond because there just aren’t too many of that sort, but the few that do would have no problem citing their logical reasons for not believing that God (as he is usually described) exists. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/189 "2017-03-07T18:56:03Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > As many have stated already, an atheist (true or otherwise) is simply one who does not believe in god(s). As I’ve stated already, I dislike this definition, because it follows that an infant, a gecko, and a doughnut are atheists like me. I think my relationship with the concept of gods is fundamentally different from those relationships with the concept of gods; for the word “atheist” to reflect that difference requires more than a simple absence of belief in gods. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/190 "2017-03-07T19:02:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Some would rather fight the hypothetical than participate in the discussion. There is no hypothetical! What are you even talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/191 "2017-03-07T19:05:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As I’ve stated already, I dislike this definition, because it follows that an infant, a gecko, and a doughnut are atheists like me. I think my relationship with the concept of gods is fundamentally different from those relationships with the concept of gods; for the word “atheist” to reflect that difference requires more than a simple absence of belief in gods. If that’s all that’s bothering you, why not just define it as “a person who does not believe in (any) god(s)”? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/192 "2017-03-07T19:09:36Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If that’s all that’s bothering you, why not just define it as “a person who does not believe in (any) god(s)”? Because he thinks babies are people? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/193 "2017-03-07T19:10:51Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If that’s all that’s bothering you, why not just define it as “a person who does not believe in (any) god(s)”? Because the relevant difference isn’t personhood, it’s that you’ve considered the idea of gods and found those ideas wanting. The considered rejection of deities is why I set myself on one side of the line, and infants and geckos and doughnuts on the other. A person who’d never encountered the idea of gods would be fundamentally different in their relationship to the idea of gods than I am. By analogy, think of two people: 1. A child who has never heard of Egypt and therefore doesn’t believe in it 2. An adult who has heard of Egypt and is like, “Nah, it’s a hoax.” Those two people have very different attitudes toward Egypt, despite the fact that neither believes in Egypt. In this way, I have a very different attitude toward God than has an infant. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/194 "2017-03-07T19:40:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Because the relevant difference isn’t personhood, it’s that you’ve considered the idea of gods and found those ideas wanting. The considered rejection of deities is why I set myself on one side of the line, and infants and geckos and doughnuts on the other. > > A person who’d never encountered the idea of gods would be fundamentally different in their relationship to the idea of gods than I am. By analogy, think of two people: > > 1. A child who has never heard of Egypt and therefore doesn’t believe in it > 2. An adult who has heard of Egypt and is like, “Nah, it’s a hoax.” > > Those two people have very different attitudes toward Egypt, despite the fact that neither believes in Egypt. In this way, I have a very different attitude toward God than has an infant. I see your point. If I go with **Kevbo** ’s definition of atheism, I must take note of the fact that one can be an atheist for very different reasons. Unlike you I do not consider that a problem. If I call myself an atheist, very few people will assume that it might be, because i have never heard of the concept of deities. So I am not at risk of giving anyone the wrong idea. I like **Kevbo** ’s definition for its clarity. If a theist is someone who believes in deities, it makes some sense to define an atheist as someone who does not. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/195 "2017-03-07T19:44:51Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > If I go with **Kevbo** ’s definition of atheism, I must take note of the fact that one can be an atheist for very different reasons. Unlike you I do not consider that a problem. If I call myself an atheist, very few people will assume that it might be, because i have never heard of the concept of deities. So I am not at risk of giving anyone the wrong idea. I was going to reply, and then I saw this, which said what I was going to try to say. I think it works just fine to use the word “atheist” for anyone who doesn’t believe in any god(s), without opening the can of worms of trying to sort out _why_ or _how_ they don’t believe, or _which_ gods or ideas of gods you’re rejecting. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/196 "2017-03-07T19:48:31Z")
Man, being an atheist is just getting too complicated. I’m giving it up. ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/197 "2017-03-07T19:49:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > My Atheist Belief: I believe that nothing approaching verifiable evidence has been presented so far that would lead me to accept the existence of any god. > If that’s too long a statement, just end the last sentence at “presented”. I think belief in “god” or “gods” is not sufficient to talk about belief or Atheism. If an entity appeared in front of you, claimed to be Zeus, launched lightning at you, is certified by experts to be fluent in ancient Greek and all the myths - or if a Christian god shows up performs miracles - all that shows is that there is some alien race or type of being with some “indistinguishable from magic” technology, and maybe they were around to influence myths of the past, so that being exists. I’d posit that the proof only changes from “some kind of being we don’t understand” to “an actual god” by answering: do these beings have some connection to the fate of your “soul”, and is your “soul” somehow separate from your body - will your soul outlast your body in some form, and does this purported god in front of you have some kind of influence over that? So the question: is it even _possible_ to have empirical proof, _within your lifetime and before you die_, that your soul can outlast you? I just don’t think it’s possible for such proof to exist as “verifiable evidence” in the scientific or philosophical sense. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/198 "2017-03-07T19:55:07Z")
I’m talking about verifiable evidence, not proof. There is a palpable difference between “convinced that enough evidence exists to take some time to consider the matter”, and “convinced beyond a doubt”. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/199 "2017-03-07T19:59:26Z")
> [@squidfood](#): > > I think belief in “god” or “gods” is not sufficient to talk about belief or Atheism. > > If an entity appeared in front of you, claimed to be Zeus, launched lightning at you, is certified by experts to be fluent in ancient Greek and all the myths - or if a Christian god shows up performs miracles - all that shows is that there is some alien race or type of being with some “indistinguishable from magic” technology, and maybe they were around to influence myths of the past, so that being exists. > > I’d posit that the proof only changes from “some kind of being we don’t understand” to “an actual god” by answering: do these beings have some connection to the fate of your “soul”, and is your “soul” somehow separate from your body - will your soul outlast your body in some form, and does this purported god in front of you have some kind of influence over that? > > So the question: is it even _possible_ to have empirical proof, _within your lifetime and before you die_, that your soul can outlast you? I just don’t think it’s possible for such proof to exist as “verifiable evidence” in the scientific or philosophical sense. There is no empirical “proof” in science. Empirical evidence, yes. If God started making it so all souls interacted with us, e.g., you could continue communicating with dead people through their Casper like ghosts, that would be pretty good evidence. Sure, it could be aliens screwing with us or “magic”, but that’s a possibility with all of our experiences. ETA: It would be evidence of souls/ghosts, not God. ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/200 "2017-03-07T20:06:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m talking about verifiable evidence, not proof. There is a palpable difference between “convinced that enough evidence exists to take some time to consider the matter”, and “convinced beyond a doubt”. Fair enough. How would you “empirically verify” the difference between a god and a powerful alien to any degree? What would be the fundamental quality of the difference between the two for you to make it “close enough”? In the case of Antarctica, there’s already a set of reasoning we can trace back, with small jumps of empirical evidence between each. But being presented with a god or alien is such a leap of faith from any body of empirical knowledge that exists, it’s hard to imagine how to get from here to there empirically. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222.md?page=11)