# So tell me, what defines a True Atheist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222 "2017-03-02T18:07:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/221 "2017-03-07T21:57:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I believe you’ve identified yourself as an atheist. If I’m wrong, please correct me; but if you’ve made such an identification, you find the word useful. It’s useful in that it takes less time to say than “I don’t believe that your god, or _any_ god exists, so if you don’t mind I’m sleeping in on Sunday and saying that I am destined for Hell isn’t going to have an effect on my decision because I don’t believe that exists, either.” ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/222 "2017-03-07T22:08:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m pretty sure my definition is both clear and matches to how we use the word “atheist.” The word is virtually never used to describe a cowrie shell, but **Kevbo’s** definition means that all cowrie shells are atheists. That’s a weird, and imprecise, definition. > > Most atheists I know don’t say, “I believe Yahweh doesn’t exist, but I have no opinion on a different omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe–say, Jed the Magnificent.” There’s a more-or-less defined category of entities called “deities” that most atheists have thought about and said, “Yeah, probably not.” It’s thinking that “probably (or definitely) not” that distinguishes atheists from lampshades. Your definition matches what wikipedia calls a “less broad” definition of atheism, whereas **Kevbo** ’s matches the broader one. Whether your claim that your definitition is how \*we \*use the word “atheist” ist true, depends on how you define “we”. Does **Kevbo** ’s definition include a lampshade? Well, if you refer to a lampshade as “someone”, then yes. Returning to the realm of humankind, his definition would put a Vietnamese farmboy, who has never encountered the concept of deity, in the “atheist” category. Your definition would require some unnamed third category between atheism and theism for him. I happen to find that unnecessary, but it seems to me that at this point we are down to a matter of personal preference, so I guess we can leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/223 "2017-03-07T22:08:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I agree, the evidence for a God, although massive, is all anecdotal. Is this the “evidence” people put forth like “the beauty of a sunrise” or “the pocketwatch’s complexity” or “story about some dude building a giant boat”; because that “evidence” doesn’t do much for me. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/224 "2017-03-07T22:09:28Z")
Personally, my lack in belief in God has not changed much at all if we discount childhood years. Why should it have? It’s not like astounding experiments or events have occurred that scrape against or for a god’ s existence. I have had a number of incidents that made me wish there was or wasn’t one but nothing meaningful to make me think so. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/225 "2017-03-07T22:12:04Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Is this the “evidence” people put forth like “the beauty of a sunrise” or “the pocketwatch’s complexity” or “story about some dude building a giant boat”; because that “evidence” doesn’t do much for me. And the best part- I get to enjoy beauty of the sunrise, be in awe of the evolution of complexity, and consider how my behavior has an impact on my life and society, all without having to believe in a g-d! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/226 "2017-03-07T22:14:30Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > And the best part- I get to enjoy beauty of the sunrise, be in awe of the evolution of complexity, and consider how my behavior has an impact on my life and society, all without having to believe in a g-d! Amen! ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/227 "2017-03-07T22:15:50Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Amen! Preach it! Can I get a hallelujah? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/228 "2017-03-07T22:16:06Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Personally, my lack in belief in God has not changed much at all if we discount childhood years. Why should it have? Because it’s an important cultural phenomenon that we all engage with in some way? I had to figure out at some point whether I believe in China. It was easy: done! I had to make the same determination about ocelots, the Marianas trench, telepathy, Steven Hawking, galoshes, and god. My lack of belief in telepathy, when I was an infant, is changed, because as a child I hadn’t grappled with the idea. Now that I have, I’ve rejected (provisionally) the idea of telepathy. That’s a significant change. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/229 "2017-03-07T22:18:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I agree, the evidence for a God, although massive, is all anecdotal. > > But there is a palpable difference between" no evidence" vs “no evidence that has convinced me.” “Astrology can foretell the future”, “homeopathy cures diseases”, “men are more intelligent than women” - you will not have to look long to find “massive” anecdotal evidence backing each of these nonsensical claims. Anecdotal evidence simply is not evidence. It’s just stories. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/230 "2017-03-07T22:19:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Because it’s an important cultural phenomenon that we all engage with in some way? Funny, for me I find the question absolutely, profoundly, unimportant. I am extremely philosophical and consider “the unexamined life not worth living”, but pondering the absence or presence of g-d is of little interest to me. Obviously, this is a clear case of YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/231 "2017-03-07T22:23:19Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > As the Friendly Giant used to say, “Look up, waaaay up.” See the threat title? > > Don’t fight the hypothetical? How about don’t fight your own thread title? > > Atheists: people who who do not affirm the proposition “at least one god exists.” Note that does not preclude an atheist’s opinion being changed upon sufficient evidence being put forward and rigorously tested to prove the assertion that there is a god or gods. That is one of the key differences between atheism and religion. Religion is based on faith/belief. Atheism is not. It is the lack of faith/belief, and instead the reliance on facts and logic, that distinguish Atheism from religion. When an atheist says “There is no god,” that is not a statement of faith/belief, but rather is a rejection of an unproven belief/faith of there being a god or gods. > . So, you continue to fight the hypothetical. All right so there are several times the term “True Atheist” could be uttered by a hard Atheist or be meaningful: _“I dont believe in God, so I am a atheist but I do believe in ghosts and the supernatural”_ A Buddhist, who does have religion, faith and a belief in the spiritual. But not a god as we define it. A person who claims to be atheist, but when pressed says “\*Well, I dont really know do I? You’re asking me to Know the Unknowable. I dont go to church or anything, but I keep a open mind on the subject.” \* Most would call him more of a agnostic. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/232 "2017-03-07T22:25:03Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > If I met an atheist who said he doesn’t believe in that outdated God stuff but who professed belief in souls, an afterlife, reincarnation, or astral powers, I might think this guy is technically an atheist, but he’s doing it wrong. Lots of people engage in magical thinking about luck, fate, anthropomorphism, and arguably free will, so maybe it’s a matter of degree. > . Exactly, good point. ---
**Author:** ![sear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sear)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/233 "2017-03-07T22:26:12Z")
**“My lack of belief in telepathy, when I was an infant, is changed, because as a child I hadn’t grappled with the idea.” LD #228** > [@](#): > > If you believe in psycho-kinesis, raise my hand. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/234 "2017-03-07T22:27:12Z")
What hypothetical? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/235 "2017-03-07T22:31:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > A person who claims to be atheist, but when pressed says “\*Well, I dont really know do I? You’re asking me to Know the Unknowable. I dont go to church or anything, but I keep a open mind on the subject.” \* Most would call him more of a agnostic. And he can still be an atheist. One can not know, not go to church, keep an open mind, and still be an atheist as long as he is without… eh, I give up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/236 "2017-03-07T22:33:11Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > What hypothetical? He keeps saying this, and I’m not sure if he knows what the word means. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/237 "2017-03-07T23:05:52Z")
The “hypothetical” appears to be a _tu quoque_, from > [@DrDeth](#): > > Czarcasm asked: “What exactly defines one as a “True Christian”, and not one in name only?” so I asked the same. > > If my question is silly and rhetorical, why isnt his? the premise being that there is some sort of canonical definition of “atheist” in way that is similar to a canonical definition of “Catholic” or “Baptist” or “Mormon”. Aside from the fact that there is no Atheist Canon, in any case, there is more divergence of perspective within any given broad classification than there is cohesiveness. What **DrDeth** would call a “True (_Whateverist_)” is almost certainly different from what the next guy would have to say about it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/238 "2017-03-07T23:08:10Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Funny, for me I find the question absolutely, profoundly, unimportant. > > I am extremely philosophical and consider “the unexamined life not worth living”, but pondering the absence or presence of g-d is of little interest to me. Obviously, this is a clear case of YMMV. Sure, on an individual basis. But on a cultural level, there’s not really any variance: this is an issue that has profound effect on our culture, and on every other culture. When I say it’s an important cultural phenomenon, I’m talking about its influence on culture and society, not saying it’s interesting to you. > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > What hypothetical? So imagine a Christian came up to you and said, “You atheists just have a different faith from mine.” Would you punch him? Because you should stop fighting the hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/239 "2017-03-07T23:26:03Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Your question is not applicable to atheists, for it implies that there is internecine dispute between atheists the way there is between Christian-American true believers, when in fact atheism is a big tent concept in which no one other than an occasional nutter gives a flying fuck at a rolling donut over the slight overlap between atheism and agnosticism concerning the evidentiary burden. Spoken like someone who has not participated in any threads on the topic on the SDMB. The fervor and venom that has been expressed when various posters have submitted (or challenged) the definitions of atheist, hard atheist, soft atheist, agnostic, and related terms have rivaled any number of disputes among the numerous Christian denominations. This is not a claim that “atheists are just like theists,” but an observation that some atheists are quite as capable of internecine warfare as any Baptist, Catholic, Orthodox Christian, Sunni, Shia, Orthodox Jew, or Reform Jew and claims to the contrary will be contradicted by even the most cursory examination of such discussions. The attempt to blame such feuds on “occasional nutters” simply indicates the amount of sugar that one chooses to apply to or withhold from one’s porridge. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/240 "2017-03-07T23:28:59Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Spoken like someone who has not participated in any threads on the topic on the SDMB. > The fervor and venom that has been expressed when various posters have submitted (or challenged) the definitions of atheist, hard atheist, soft atheist, agnostic, and related terms have rivaled any number of disputes among the numerous Christian denominations. > This is not a claim that “atheists are just like theists,” but an observation that some atheists are quite as capable of internecine warfare as any Baptist, Catholic, Orthodox Christian, Sunni, Shia, Orthodox Jew, or Reform Jew and claims to the contrary will be contradicted by even the most cursory examination of such discussions. The attempt to blame such feuds on “occasional nutters” simply indicates the amount of sugar that one chooses to apply to or withhold from one’s porridge. Pretty much why I picked Agnatheist as my handle was from one of those very nasty debate threads. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222.md?page=13)