# So tell me, what defines a True Atheist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222 "2017-03-02T18:07:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/301 "2017-03-09T22:34:25Z")
I feel like, behind this thread and the “true Christian” one lies a desire to categorize people in such a way that you can check a box under “Religion” according to what category they fall into—this person’s a Christian, that person’s a Jew, that other person’s an atheist—and know just what to expect from them. The thing is, people can be categorized according to (1) what they **believe** , (2) what they **practice** , (3) what they **belong** to, or (4) what they **identify** themselves as. When all four of these things line up, that makes it easy. If someone (1) believes all of the things stated in one of the classic Christian creeds, (2) prays and reads the Bible and makes a wholehearted attempt to live according to the teachings of Jesus, (3) is a member in good standing of a mainstream Christian church, and (4) claims to be a Christian, most of us would have no problem accepting that they are, indeed, Christian. If someone (1) has no belief in any sort of god, (2) doesn’t follow any religious rules nor participate in any religious rituals, and their behavior is guided by purely secular considerations, (3) is not a member of any religious organization, and (4) claims to be an atheist, most of us would have no problem accepting that they are, indeed, atheist. But these are _sufficient_ conditions, not _necessary_ ones. It’s when you try to lay out _necessary and sufficient conditions_ for a person to be a “true atheist” or “true Christian” that the controversy starts. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/302 "2017-03-09T23:50:54Z")
The definition of religion I like best is: “An organized system of ideas, possessing both and ethos and a mythos, the latter involving an appeal to a personified supernatural.” If it ain’t supernatural (in some respect) it ain’t a religion, and believing in an impersonal supernatural force, like ESP, doesn’t cut the mustard. Also, if you don’t have to do anything, it isn’t a religion. You have to pray toward Mecca, or not eat pork, or “accept Jesus” or perform some other act. It isn’t ironclad, but it covers most of the bases. An atheist, of course, accepts neither of these things. ---
**Author:** ![WeeWilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WeeWilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeeWilly)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/303 "2017-03-10T03:03:36Z")
"The definition of religion I like best is: “An organized system of ideas, possessing both and ethos and a mythos, the latter involving an appeal to a personified supernatural.” Trinopus, again, this is way too complex, when the matter is actually rather simple. A religion is any system of [atavistic] beliefs based on the notion that some intelligent being created everything. The beliefs need not be organized, written, or reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/304 "2017-03-10T03:29:21Z")
> [@WeeWilly](#): > > … A religion is any system of [atavistic] beliefs based on the notion that some intelligent being created everything… What about Taoism, Jainism and some Native American religions that include no intelligent superbeing? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/305 "2017-03-10T03:31:34Z")
> [@SingleMalt](#): > > This line of testimony appears to presume that dictionary definitions precede word usage, when the opposite is true. The dictionary has definitions that support a metaphorical use of the word “religion” because the word “religion” is often used this way - much as you are doing. You’ve got the cart before the horse, here. I didnt cite the dictionary,\*\* Czarcasm\*\* did. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/306 "2017-03-10T07:02:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I didnt cite the dictionary,\*\* Czarcasm\*\* did. Yes but whereas **Czarcasm** used it as descriptive, you use it as prescriptive. ---
**Author:** ![krinh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@krinh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krinh)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/307 "2017-03-10T07:10:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > A take off from this thread: > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820569](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820569) > > **Czarcasm** is particularly invited to respond. imma say the badass trench coat, and kickass fedora? mayb some shades? ^^; > [@Musicat](#): > > Is a True Atheist like a True Scotsman? yes… exactly like that.. but with like 80% more memes ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/308 "2017-03-11T00:38:35Z")
> [@WeeWilly](#): > > "The definition of religion I like best is: “An organized system of ideas, possessing both and ethos and a mythos, the latter involving an appeal to a personified supernatural.” > > Trinopus, again, this is way too complex, when the matter is actually rather simple. A religion is any system of [atavistic] beliefs based on the notion that some intelligent being created everything. The beliefs need not be organized, written, or reasonable. Well, I certainly never said it had to be reasonable! Come to think of it, I didn’t say they had to be written, either: tribal lore about spirits is religious. The definition is an attempt to “sharpen the edge” of what is inescapably a fuzzy set. It does a fairly good job of including most of the things we (by and large) think of as religions, while excluding most of those we don’t. Worshipping your motorcycle can have some religious-like overtones, but it doesn’t involve a personification of the supernatural, so, nope, it’s just a fetish. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/309 "2017-03-11T00:55:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Worshipping your motorcycle can have some religious-like overtones, but it doesn’t involve a personification of the supernatural, so, nope, it’s just a fetish. What about the art of motorcycle maintenance? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/310 "2017-03-11T01:20:25Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > What about the art of motorcycle maintenance? I know you are joking but I feel it should be noted that “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” divides the two right from the title. Its about applying your spirituality/religion to a process. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/311 "2017-03-13T17:29:24Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I know you are joking but I feel it should be noted that “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” divides the two right from the title. Its about applying your spirituality/religion to a process. Yes, but it was a little funny, no? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/312 "2017-03-21T17:21:16Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Yes but whereas **Czarcasm** used it as descriptive, you use it as prescriptive. I disagree. The usage is the same in both cases. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/313 "2017-03-21T17:40:47Z")
Test to determine True Atheism™: Do you believe in any God or Gods? [ol] [li]NO[/li][li]YES[/li][/ol] If **NO** , congratulations! Your True Atheist™ certificate will arrive by mail in 4-6 weeks. If **YES** , I am sorry, you do not meet our membership requirements. Perhaps you would be more interested in one of the following labels: [ul] [li]Agnostic[/li][li]Deist[/li][li]Pagan[/li][li]“Spiritual, but not religious”[/li][li]… and many more![/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/314 "2017-03-21T17:46:27Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > Test to determine True Atheism™: > > Do you believe in any God or Gods? > [ol] > [li]NO[/li][li]YES[/li][/ol] > > If **NO** , congratulations! Your True Atheist™ certificate will arrive by mail in 4-6 weeks. > > If **YES** , I am sorry, you do not meet our membership requirements. Perhaps you would be more interested in one of the following labels: > > [ul] > [li]Agnostic[/li][li]Deist[/li][li]Pagan[/li][li]“Spiritual, but not religious”[/li][li]… and many more![/li][/ul] Are Buddhists Atheists? Are Spiritualists Atheists? You even listed "“Spiritual, but not religious”. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/315 "2017-03-21T17:51:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Are Buddhists Atheists? Some Buddhists are, some aren’t. You’ve been told many times what it depends on. Why do you keep asking questions like this as if you don’t know the answer? What are you trying to accomplish? > [@](#): > > Are Spiritualists Atheists? Same answer as above. > [@](#): > > You even listed "“Spiritual, but not religious”. Right. The poster said that is one of many options for a theist. It also describes some atheists. WHAT POINT ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/316 "2017-03-21T17:55:13Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Some Buddhists are, some aren’t. You’ve been told many times what it depends on. Why do you keep asking questions like this as if you don’t know the answer? What are you trying to accomplish? > Same answer as above. > Right. The poster said that is one of many options for a theist. It also describes some atheists. WHAT POINT ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE? Are you\*\* krondys\*\*? \*Test to determine True Atheism™: Do you believe in any God or Gods? NO YES\* Are you trying to say that a person who believes in a spirit, a afterlife, but not necessarily a Deity- is a Atheist? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/317 "2017-03-21T18:00:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Are you\*\* krondys\*\*? Why, am I required to be the person you’re responding to in order to answer? I’m someone who has watched you pretend that you don’t get a simple thing over and over. > [@](#): > > Are you trying to say that a person who believes in a spirit, a afterlife, but not necessarily a Deity- is a Atheist? YES!!! You can believe in anything you want, but if you have no belief in the existence of any gods you are an atheist! Will you stop asking the same questions now? ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/318 "2017-03-21T18:32:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Are you\*\* krondys\*\*? > \*Test to determine True Atheism™: > > Do you believe in any God or Gods? > NO > YES\* > > Are you trying to say that a person who believes in a spirit, a afterlife, but not necessarily a Deity- is a Atheist? As **x-ray vision** said, it really doesn’t matter what else you believe in- if you don’t believe in any god/s, then you have met the only requirement for being an atheist. One could believe in ghosts and ghouls and UFOs and the afterlife and a multiverse that includes a spiritual plane… but as long as you don’t believe there is a deity that controls all/some of it, then you are an atheist, by definition. I would find you to be an ODD atheist, no doubt, but you still meet the one and only prerequisite for “atheism”. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/319 "2017-03-21T19:23:13Z")
Personally, someone who believes in ghosts, an afterlife or less than omnipotent deity is most certainly not an atheist. It would be an oddly arbitrary line to say believing in all powerful magical creatures is much different from a guy who believes in Poseidon because he is only god of the oceans. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/320 "2017-03-21T19:48:39Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Why, am I required to be the person you’re responding to in order to answer? I’m someone who has watched you pretend that you don’t get a simple thing over and over. > YES!!! You can believe in anything you want, but if you have no belief in the existence of any gods you are an atheist! Will you stop asking the same questions now? Others disagree, and that’s my point. You may well think so, but it’s hardly settled just by you saying so. **UY Scuti** _"Thus, I strongly believe a ‘true’ atheist is a person who rejects any religious belief. And to prove I’m not alone in this, I’m going to quote encyclopedia britannica: “Atheism, however, casts a wider net and rejects all belief in “spiritual beings,” and to the extent that belief in spiritual beings is definitive of what it means for a system to be religious, atheism rejects religion. So atheism is not only a rejection of the central conceptions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam; it is, as well, a rejection of the religious beliefs of such African religions as that of the Dinka and the Nuer, of the anthropomorphic gods of classical Greece and Rome, and of the transcendental conceptions of Hinduism and Buddhism. Generally atheism is a denial of God or of the gods, and if religion is defined in terms of belief in spiritual beings, then atheism is the rejection of all religious belief.”_ **Thudlow Boink** \*“If someone (1) has no belief in any sort of god, (2) doesn’t follow any religious rules nor participate in any religious rituals, and their behavior is guided by purely secular considerations, (3) is not a member of any religious organization, and (4) claims to be an atheist, most of us would have no problem accepting that they are, indeed, atheist.”\* **eburacum45**"_But I’m quite happy with the simple answer ‘no religion’,…"_ **UY Scuti** : _In my opinion, a good definition of the atheists should mention the lack of belief in any type of “divine” or supernatural…Because an atheist is a non-theist, whatever the nature of the latter may be. Contexts differ around the world, and internationally speaking being an atheist involves holding no religious creed and believing in no transcendental/metaphysical/supernatural force, energy and the like…_ **marshmallow** _If I met an atheist who said he doesn’t believe in that outdated God stuff but who professed belief in souls, an afterlife, reincarnation, or astral powers, I might think this guy is technically an atheist, but he’s doing it wrong._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222.md?page=17)